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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kemi Badenoch nails it

213 replies

teawamutu · 04/03/2022 08:28

From Glinner's update - this is brilliant:
grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/no-means-no?r=ahiyi&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

OP posts:
ATeamAmy · 04/03/2022 10:14

She knows she's talking absolute bollocks, but she's seen what's happened to Rosie Duffield and JKR; so she's keeping the (rabid TRA) wolves from her door by blithely going along with it.

Nokes is a Conservative, though, and must know this is not a vote winner for her party, or a good look for her to be undermining her own colleagues in the party. So she either really believes in this stuff, or her constituency is full of blue haired students she needs to keep on the right side of.

DialSquare · 04/03/2022 10:22

I really enjoyed that. Especially the finality of the "No"!

DomesticatedZombie · 04/03/2022 10:22

@ATeamAmy

She knows she's talking absolute bollocks, but she's seen what's happened to Rosie Duffield and JKR; so she's keeping the (rabid TRA) wolves from her door by blithely going along with it.

Nokes is a Conservative, though, and must know this is not a vote winner for her party, or a good look for her to be undermining her own colleagues in the party. So she either really believes in this stuff, or her constituency is full of blue haired students she needs to keep on the right side of.

I think this is at least partly in-party politicking. Nokes is in an anti-Boris camp, or the other way round, I believe.
Zerogravity · 04/03/2022 10:22

So she either really believes in this stuff, or her constituency is full of blue haired students she needs to keep on the right side of.
Her constituency is mostly elderly and has little interest in this debate.She will probably be reelected on local issues.

teawamutu · 04/03/2022 10:25

@Rodedooda

How are you defining trans?

This is a keeper.

Absolutely agree. Followed by stating the truth, clearly and politely.

And then saying no.

Kemi for PM! And I've never voted Tory in my life.

OP posts:
Datun · 04/03/2022 10:28

Well that was an eye-opener. You'd think that Noakes would be more prepared. Oh wait, there is no preparation other than never-ending versions of no debate.

Plus I can't help noticing that Caroline Noakes says she's 'frantically trying to remember what minister Quince' says, and when Kemi says she's not seen anything to do with it, reads it verbatim off the bloody piece of paper in front of her! Sly.

Honestly, does she not realise that going out of your way to not mention the sex of the hypothetical trans person and the hypothetical children involved, is shifty as fuck.

That was a master class in dodgy dissembling.

And yes, 'define trans' is such an unanswerable question, that just asking it is going to blow the whole thing out of the water, every time.

teawamutu · 04/03/2022 10:33

Honestly, does she not realise that going out of your way to not mention the sex of the hypothetical trans person and the hypothetical children involved, is shifty as fuck.

I mean, if you do mention the sexes involved people just say no. So I suspect she's just bright enough to have worked it out.

OP posts:
ATeamAmy · 04/03/2022 10:38

I think this is at least partly in-party politicking. Nokes is in an anti-Boris camp, or the other way round, I believe.

Yes, I believe you are right, her Wiki says she lost the Whip siding against Boris on one of the Brexit votes. (Her dad was an MEP, and working for him is how she started her political career). But that makes Nokes even more disgraceful, if throwing women under the bus is partly her way of sticking it to Boris.

Anyway, Kemi B is certainly becoming a superstar in my eyes. Here she is 10 days ago defending Baroness Faulkner. I only wish she'd mentioned Stonewall.

IsitM · 04/03/2022 10:40

@Toseland

Cheering for Kemi, that was outstanding! Do we know where this was or what was said before and after?
This was a Women and Equalities Select Committe hearing on Wednesday this week, a one-off session on 'Levelling Up and Equalities".

It did not begin well, with Nokes mispronouncing the Minister's name, then calling her by her first name (gosh we have definitely seen that before when she speaks to women!), when all the other members called her Minister Badenoch.

You can watch the whole thing here:
committees.parliament.uk/event/6910/formal-meeting-oral-evidence-session/

Kemi also gave a very good defence of Baroness Falkner and the EHRC in response to good questions from Jackie Doyle-Price.

Cuck00soup · 04/03/2022 10:46

Yesss!

I've not been a KB fan until now as I had a really disappointing response when I wrote to her and expressed concerns (about DBS and changing birth certificates) a few years ago. But this is bloody brilliant.

DomesticatedZombie · 04/03/2022 10:58

I think Nokes' trouble is that Nokes has not got the wit to realise that her performance is risible or her points insensible.

I genuinely don't wish to be rude here, and I'm not saying that every MP or politician needs to be super intelligent, but there probably needs to be a line drawn - below a certain intellectual ability is it really possible to function at a level sophisticated enough to engage in debate or offer constructive input to government? It would even be okay if Nokes was able to recognise the lack of her own knowledge and understanding and take steps to rectify it, but is she capable of seeing it?

I felt the same watching the discussion in ScotParl yesterday - the MSP making such a crashingly ignorant and insensitive comment about how predatory males have never needed to pretend to be other than what they are in order to abuse - and others applauding - are they even aware of how limited, crude and twisted their own knowledge & understanding is? I guess not.

None so blind, etc.

Zerogravity · 04/03/2022 11:17

I agree - this current crop of MPs and SMPs seems to be particularly thick though!

teawamutu · 04/03/2022 11:18

Just watched it again because I enjoyed the clarity so much, and really struck by the 'thank you no further questions' response.

Is Noakes dim enough to think she's scored a hit, or smart enough to realise there is no decent comeback and backing away?

OP posts:
foodfiend · 04/03/2022 11:28

Nokes wasn't reading off a paper. She says "Minister Quince said that he will be uneasy if his children were in dormitories with trans pupils."

He didn't. The question posed to Quince was whether he would be comfortable with a very specific scenario - an 18 year old male who identifies as a trans girl sharing boarding accommodation with his daughters. He said,
"“On the face of what you just said, as a parent – and in particular a parent of two young girls – I probably wouldn’t be overly happy with the situation you describe.”

It suits certain people to represent this as being about 'trans children' rather than 'males and females sharing'.

I think most parents would not have concerns about their child sharing with a child of the same sex who identifies as trans. There is nothing in what Quince said to suggest that he would.

DomesticatedZombie · 04/03/2022 11:31

Yes, she also misquoted Quince and then complained when Kemi asked for clarification of 'trans', because she said that was the term Quince used. It wasn't, I don't think?

DomesticatedZombie · 04/03/2022 11:32

@teawamutu

Just watched it again because I enjoyed the clarity so much, and really struck by the 'thank you no further questions' response.

Is Noakes dim enough to think she's scored a hit, or smart enough to realise there is no decent comeback and backing away?

This is what I mean. She quite often seems, just after having made a godawful crashingly stupid mistake, to think she's scored a hit. It's bizarre.
IsitM · 04/03/2022 11:46

Will Quince's actual words, from the transcript of the meeting:
(My bold)

"Dr Caroline Johnson: Let me move on to my second question. You have the safeguarding brief. The number of children who identify as
transgender is increasing, and schools need to strike a balance of
ensuring that these children can be cared for properly and that their needs are properly met. Schools also need to balance this with the needs of the wider school population.
I have been contacted as a member of this Committee in the last week by parents who are concerned about the presence of an 18-year-old transwoman in the boarding house of their teenage daughters. What guidance does the Department provide to schools on managing these situations in a sensitive way that provides for the privacy, dignity and wellbeing of all the students?

Will Quince: This area has been a minefield, if we are being honest, and we are working very closely with the Government Equalities Office to formulate our guidance in this space. Yes, we have our RHSE curriculum. I am conscious the school you reference is independent, I think, so it falls under a slightly different framework.
There are two competing priorities here. The first is the 2010 Equality
Act—the importance of all children and young people being treated
equally, and ensuring that where there are protected characteristics, they are recognised.
At the same time, any school also has legal obligations, and a duty to
safeguard, protect and promote the welfare of all children. On the face of what you just said, as a parent—specifically a parent of two young girls—I probably would not be overly happy with the situation you describe.
Given that the school is independent, it is slightly more complex, but I
would suggest that the parent speaks with the headteacher, the
governors and, if necessary, raises it with the Independent Schools Inspectorate as the school will not be covered by Ofsted.

Dr Caroline Johnson: Should the Government be providing guidance on this issue to help schools? You said it is a minefield, but schools need help navigating that minefield and do not want to get caught up in legal wrangles. Would it not be best if the Government provided some detailed guidance on how schools can manage this for the wellbeing of all students?

Will Quince: I will speak to the Minister for Schools and I am sure that
that the matter will be in progress alongside the Government Equalities Office. But at the same time you can give all the guidance in the world that sets out the legal position but you need schools to use their common sense and follow the law as it stands at the moment. I would suggest that the duty to protect and to safeguard should probably override anything else.

Chair: What do you mean by anything else?

Will Quince: The No. 1 priority of any school or anyone in society has to be the protection and safeguarding of children above anything else. In my view, that is a reasonable position for anyone to take."

P13 onwards
committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/9805/pdf/

Abitofalark · 04/03/2022 11:48

The Chairs of Select Committees are elected by the House in a secret ballot.

They have to have a minimum level of support from MPs in their own party even to be nominated to go forward for election.

The posts of Chair of Select Committees are allocated to the parties according to the relative numbers of the parties in the House. So the Conservatives will have more in this Parliament.

DomesticatedZombie · 04/03/2022 12:04

Thanks, IsitM, that's helpful. So Nokes has completely misquoted him.

AbitofaLark - so Nokes was voted in ... some people think she is suited for and capable of this role.

Hmm
ATeamAmy · 04/03/2022 12:07

WOW! I think everyone should watch what was said after the clip posted by Glinner. KB made it clear that she doesn't agree with self ID, and that they way that CN had framed her question to KB was an attempt to get it framed that KB doesn't believe in rights for trans people, and is not a constructive way of discussing the matter. CN ignores this and jumps onto a question about trans healthcare and why isn't the government hurrying up to ensure the most marginalised get what they need (I'm paraphrasing). KB says amongst other things she is talking to clinicians about their concerns with the Conversion Therapy Bill. There's then a further question from a different committee member about self ID, and again KB answers so well - that the concern is not about trans people but about predators abusing and exploiting it. There is then a question about whether the govt will follow other countries' self ID legislation. KB brilliantly says we should make our own laws for our own needs. And finally, a brilliant question about abolishing GRA altogether. And Kemi's answer is very diplomatic about a wider review/ conversation being needed to reflect the current times. But basically, she tells CN off for the way she's framed her question and the abusive atmosphere this creates and the abuse detransitioners etc have experiences. CN is really not happy with this.

From 15.34

parliamentlive.tv/event/index/0e356ee5-a5b6-41a8-9be7-beac83ec376c

ATeamAmy · 04/03/2022 12:15

Sorry for that inarticulate, stream of consciousness post! But it really is great to watch the rest of that discussion, Kemi is a bloody star!

Rightsraptor · 04/03/2022 12:22

Quince has two daughters, according to the newspapers reporting on this. He presumably imagines, and has done for ever, that any residential school trip or whatever will mean his daughters will share sleeping and bathroom accommodation with other girls, as anybody rational thought till 5 minutes ago.

Nokes has de-sexed the people involved. She talks of 'children' in dorms with 'trans children', thus neatly muddying the waters (what a surprise). I would have no problem with my granddaughter sharing with a trans boy, on the grounds that that child is female - still a 'trans child' though. What I would have a massive problem with, as do the vast majority of us here and Kemi B and Will Quince et al is a 'trans girl' i.e. a male sharing with our daughters. Does Nokes really not see the difference or think we can't see the dangers, even if she can't?

Datun · 04/03/2022 12:24

@foodfiend

Nokes wasn't reading off a paper. She says "Minister Quince said that he will be uneasy if his children were in dormitories with trans pupils."

He didn't. The question posed to Quince was whether he would be comfortable with a very specific scenario - an 18 year old male who identifies as a trans girl sharing boarding accommodation with his daughters. He said,
"“On the face of what you just said, as a parent – and in particular a parent of two young girls – I probably wouldn’t be overly happy with the situation you describe.”

It suits certain people to represent this as being about 'trans children' rather than 'males and females sharing'.

I think most parents would not have concerns about their child sharing with a child of the same sex who identifies as trans. There is nothing in what Quince said to suggest that he would.

Yes, that's right, she was misquoting him.

My point really was that she was pretending she was trying to remember something that she had written down in front of her. But I suspect she was using 'I'm frantically trying to recall something' in order to recall it completely wrong.

But yes, the wider context is he was absolutely talking about two people of the opposite sex. And three times she tried to make out that it wasn't about that.

Fortunately, Kemi didn't let her.

It's very worrying that politicians are hellbent on following the TRA playbook.

First of all we had you want all trans people to die, it's just genocide.

Then it's about excluding all trans people from sport - not the wrong category of sport.

Now it's trans people and children in general, and not two people of the opposite sex.

People are far more confident in challenging it now, though.

OhHolyJesus · 04/03/2022 12:27

Love Kemi. Absolutely love her, and her simple answer "No".

Cuck00soup · 04/03/2022 12:29

So a minister - who just happens to hold a safeguarding brief - says he wouldn't be over the moon with an 18 year old male sharing sleeping accommodation with his younger daughters.

Well, thank fuck.