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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Exulansic has reduced following?

306 replies

Linearpark · 01/03/2022 11:54

Are people still following her now she's migrated to Odyssey? Her numbers are way down but you'd think everyone knew where to find her by now. Is there something about the Odyssey platform that is off-putting that I should know about. eg has it got unsavoury content or is it sound and just small and alternative? Or do people subscribe to channels that they aren't really interested in? Just wondered.

OP posts:
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264MyShirt · 12/03/2022 02:04

[quote DontLikeCrumpets]@264MyShirt

Is this the groups that has some sort of association with Cantor?[/quote]
I am not aware that I have mentioned any group that "has some sort of association with Cantor".

DontLikeCrumpets · 12/03/2022 05:50

@264MyShirt

I realize I saw the reference to Cantor awhile ago elsewhere when the question was first raised whether KD's claim that Genspect was linked to paedophilia was true. Given that the answer to that question was so succinct and thorough I am posting it here as it clarifies what happened that created this unfortunate confusion:

"It's a weak link. Aaron Kimberly and Sasha Ayad, advisors of Genspect along with the member Stella O'Malley have all interviewed Michael Bailey, the author of The Man Who Would be Queen (Aaron's interview here and Sasha and Stella's interview here .

They've also interviewed Ray Blanchard (here and here .

Both Bailey and Blanchard are listed as supporters on the Virtuous Pedophiles about page (Wayback Machine link to that page here virped.org/our-supporters.html) Also listed is Cantor who wants to throw a parade for pedophiles who make the huge sacrifice of not abusing a child...). It seems like most mainstream sex researchers are on the destigmatize-pedophile-train, including Debra Soh who is also listed as a supporter."

Cailleach1 · 12/03/2022 10:00

@264MyShirt

Cailleach1 - Errrm . . . How many people are operating this account??

The style is so different from post to post and this last one looks like it has been put through Google Translate to produce some vague approximation of English.

I just came here for the childcare years ago, and stayed. What is your story? I'm sure there are many new posters. New babies perhaps?

Yes, articles were translated from dutch to english.

@264MyShirt I shall continue to feel free to reply to comments as I see fit, within the Talk Guidelines of course.

Now all you have to do is realise that other posters have that right too. Maybe don't barge into the lane of other posters and try to instruct/restrict where and what they can comment. Oh, and when they quite rightly tell you to bog off for trying to control them, don't try to pretend they are the bully. That is dishonest.

I shall post more from that 'Martijn' paedophiles case that was in court this week in Rotterdam. When I get a chance. Imagine they were only banned in 2014 after parents started a court case in 2010. Parents who are under no illusion but that paedophilia (as child sex abuse) damages children for their whole lives. Lest we forget there are the real live victims of paedophilia.

I'm sure most parents are relieved that the ECHR and the Dutch Court prioritised the wellbeing and protection of children over the 'right's of paedophiles.

Cailleach1 · 12/03/2022 10:08

I would like to point out that I am not accusing anyone of being a paedophile, except the paedophiles themselves.

It is more that we should be aware that child centred protections should never be eroded. Paedophilia (child sex abuse) is not rights based.

Fieldofgreycorn · 12/03/2022 10:22

I don’t understand why Stella is a problem for you?

The more extreme end of the GC movement have a problem with Stella because she gives people like Debbie Hayton a voice, and a degree of legitimacy. She is also respectful. She uses preferred pronouns.

My guess (happy to be corrected) at what they really want is for Stella to say that transition is always wrong and these medical procedures should never be paid for by the state. That transsexuals shouldn’t be referred to as transsexuals because you cannot change sex. That people should never be treated or referred to ‘as if’ they have changed sex/ gender. That you should only ever use sex based pronouns.

That’s what some GCs don’t like. In their view, organisations like Genspect and Stella are using their legitimate and acceptable stance towards children and helping them, to wash other aspects of transition and transsexuality (“gender ideology”) with respectability.

It also reveals what some people’s real priorities and motivations are.

gcrhino · 12/03/2022 11:10

"The more extreme end of the GC movement have a problem with Stella because she gives people like Debbie Hayton a voice, and a degree of legitimacy. She is also respectful. She uses preferred pronouns."

Well that makes a little more sense to me as it does feel like this is a vendetta. More importantly (at least to me), it backs up the theory that the people attacking Genspect care more about going after MtFs than they do about our kids. Whatever people think about Debbie, he's on TV speaking out against transition for kids.

If there's hatred of men to spare, why not direct it towards emotionally absent fathers who let all the mums do the legwork? But now I see the answer: because the kids aren't the priority.

Heart breaking.

terryleather · 12/03/2022 12:02

Every time you amplify the voices of men such as Hayton, no matter how reasonable you believe their position to be (and this is the author of trans guidance in schools recommending that pupils use prefered pronouns to their teachers, and staff should use the toilet facilities of their chosen" gender identity" etc) then you are doing so at the expense of their wives/partners and children.

I don't think that's acceptable.

Linearpark · 12/03/2022 12:23

Sorry to butt in but what strange comment am I supposed to have made? It makes it look like I support him which I distinctly don't. I want to know what I am supposed to have said.

OP posts:
Linearpark · 12/03/2022 12:28

@Cailleach1
Could you please explain what you are on about please?

Exulansic has reduced following?
Exulansic has reduced following?
Exulansic has reduced following?
OP posts:
Cailleach1 · 12/03/2022 12:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cailleach1 · 12/03/2022 12:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Linearpark · 12/03/2022 13:00

Yes well I have both of those names having sat on my phone once Blush

OP posts:
Linearpark · 12/03/2022 13:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post.

Linearpark · 12/03/2022 13:08

Or get mumsnet to rescue said comment from the deleted thread. Don't mind which Hmm

OP posts:
Linearpark · 12/03/2022 13:11

I'll have to try that trick sometime when someone annoys me...oh no I wouldn't do that.

OP posts:
Cailleach1 · 12/03/2022 13:11

[quote Linearpark]@Cailleach1
Could you please explain what you are on about please?[/quote]
Yes, I correctly referred to Lineaxxxxcc in the post. I did not suggest in any shape or form that Lineaxxxxcc was a supporter of Cantor (or comments made by Cantor). Indeed, if pushed to infer anything from the tone, I would have thought the poster was unimpressed by Cantor. That is just my own opinion, though. I think they said someone should apologise for him. Maybe that is why I was curious to look him up. I think that poster had tried to move the conversation to another thread, and subsequently deleted it.

Yes, no implication or suggestion of support (or otherwise) in my reference. I was curious about the remark made by Lineaxxxxcc about James Cantor. There begun, and there endeth the reference to that poster.

Solidarityovercharity · 12/03/2022 13:16

Every time you silence a parent or an organisation who speaks for parents then you are inadvertently enabling a cult thats gives mastectomies to young and vulnerable teenagers @terryleather
There is nothing wrong with amplifying the voices of trans widows and their children but there is everything wrong with doing so at the expense of Other Vulnerable People

Cailleach1 · 12/03/2022 13:28

@Linearpark

You mentioned James Cantor (and something along the lines of an apology for him?).

I have never apologised for James Cantor! Delete both tweets please.

Clumsy wording on my part, I think.

However I will post again without any reference to the other thread, which someone who shall remain anonymous started. And, that anonymous person mentioned James Cantor (with what appeared to me to be disapproval) and stated (I paraphrase) along the lines that somebody should apologise for him. Not to him, rather about him.

That is probably better wording. I can probably cut it out though. As the thread that nobody started that was subsequently deleted.

Cailleach1 · 12/03/2022 13:34

I will immediately ask for the original post (and quote posts) to be deleted. I do understand how it was clumsy op, so have removed clumsy wording.

I was curious about a remark I had seen about James Cantor.
James Cantor is an American/Canadian chappie. Now I don't know if he is influential, but did find a screenshot of a tweet quote of his that would be abhorrent to most parents and probably doubly abhorrent to most parents who are same sex attracted.

Speaking as a gay man, I believe we should include the P. To do otherwise is to betray the principles that gave us our rights

What special or extra rights (that they don't have now) does Cantor think Paedophiles should have, I wonder? Or, turning it around, I wonder what discrimination or injustice does he think Paedophiles face that take away their rights? What does that mean for children?
Definitely a NoThankYou moment from me.

Prostasia's Goal is to Normalize Pedophilia by Anna Slatz is the site where I found that twitter screenshot. For source.

This thread has come away from the title and opening post quite a bit, but I suppose that means we are all free to remark on things as topics arise.

264MyShirt · 12/03/2022 13:34

[quote DontLikeCrumpets]@264MyShirt

I realize I saw the reference to Cantor awhile ago elsewhere when the question was first raised whether KD's claim that Genspect was linked to paedophilia was true. Given that the answer to that question was so succinct and thorough I am posting it here as it clarifies what happened that created this unfortunate confusion:

"It's a weak link. Aaron Kimberly and Sasha Ayad, advisors of Genspect along with the member Stella O'Malley have all interviewed Michael Bailey, the author of The Man Who Would be Queen (Aaron's interview here and Sasha and Stella's interview here .

They've also interviewed Ray Blanchard (here and here .

Both Bailey and Blanchard are listed as supporters on the Virtuous Pedophiles about page (Wayback Machine link to that page here virped.org/our-supporters.html) Also listed is Cantor who wants to throw a parade for pedophiles who make the huge sacrifice of not abusing a child...). It seems like most mainstream sex researchers are on the destigmatize-pedophile-train, including Debra Soh who is also listed as a supporter."[/quote]
Thank you DontLikeCrumpets - that's really helpful!

(I searched for "Debra Soh who is also listed as a supporter" and found the original discussion on Ovarit, which was also useful.)

The nature of this "weak link" makes the whole thing even more bizarre.

Where it ends up is with "Virtuous Paedophiles" website - incredibly creepy-sounding and rather suspect.

Placing those two words next to each other will inevitably create a semantic link between "virtue" and "paedophilia", ie. not just making it sound like being sexually attracted to children is a good-thing but conditioning the brain to link the concept of "virtue" with "paedophilia". Not a million miles from the attempted "rebranding" of child molesters as "Kinds".

Even if the mental association does not go that far, there is also the suggestion that these are "good people" per se, which is obviously ridiculous. I am sure any parent would be glad to know that their child was not raped before being murdered but that hardly qualifies the murderer to be considered "virtuous", ie. if they confess that they wanted to rape as well as kill but kindly (!) restrained themselves from violating the child!

"Non-offending" would be a better description because it is objective and refers to actions, or lack of action.

I find it hard to trust the motives of a group of self-confessed paedophiles who set out their stall as being "virtuous" people.

It makes my skin crawl and I can't be the only one who feels this way, so it makes me wonder if that "branding" might be self-defeating?

However, if - BIG IF - their aim is genuinely to prevent children being abused and raped AND they achieve that aim, then that has to be a good thing.

Whether they are going the right way about it to achieve that aim is another thing altogether and needs separate consideration. For example, it was found that the Sex Offenders Treatment Programme being used in UK Prisons for many years only succeeded in increasing the rate of offending post-release.

What I meant by "the nature of this weak link" above, is that to portray it as "concerning" or indicative of any meaningful link between Genspect and paedophiles is thoroughly contrived.

All the people mentioned as "links" in this "guilt by association chain" (Bailey, Blanchard and Cantor - B,B&C) are researchers whose work and views inform current understanding of the various, possibly unrelated, phenomena grouped under the labels "transgender", "transsexual", "gender dysphoria", "gender identity disorder", etc. etc.

That does not mean that they are now, and have always been, correct in their understanding of these phenomena. They are scientists, fallible humans, not divine oracles.

In a contested field of study, unless and until their research is proved misleading and worthless, their views are important and need to be aired, alongside those of the long list of other researchers interviewed by individuals involved with Gensepct.

However, the suggestion from Genspect's critics seems to be that, due to B,B&C's research and views in a different area of "Sexology" (paedophilia), that B,B&C should be "No Platformed" by individuals involved with Genspect.

At the same time, these critics claim to be "free speech" advocates and protest vociferously (rightly IMHO) when they are "cancelled" and "deplatformed" by those who regard their views as dangerously ill-informed.

Both KD and SW have been banned from various social media platforms for their actual views, which I think is wrong. Yet they criticise Genspect for a contrived association between three "Genspect" individuals, operating in a different capacity, via B,B&C with some possibly dubious organisations or individuals.

So a very weak link, rather than anything to do with views actually articulated by Genspect or members of the Genspect team.

This position and situation is ironic. By this reasoning, there is also cause for Sierra and Karen to be shunned by all right-thinking people, irrespective of the value of what they have to offer.

I am NOT suggesting that either should be shunned for this reason, only that their position looks rather shaky, hypocritical even.

For example, they also lambast Benjamin Boyce for having interviewed Bailey, Blanchard and Cantor. BB is therefore evil! However, they both clearly had a whale of a time being interviewed by BB, Ex three times.

Did they not do due diligence to discover BB's links to BB&C? Did they know but not care, selling their souls for greater visibility on a more popular YouTube channel? So off with their heads too? (sarcasm)

ps. I note that Fieldofgreycorn has suggested a possible motive for KD and SW's "seek and destroy" mission against Genspect and/or Stella. That is, if I have understood correctly, that KD and SW expect everyone involved in this area to be "GC Activists" and that if they are not then they are the enemy. The same tension, between "campaigners" and "service providers", plays out in many areas.

I saw it play out in a leading organisation that provided support and services for people whose lives were marred by serious substance abuse. It was "taken over" by infiltration of "campaigners". Within 18 months of the first appointment of a "campaigner" all funding had been diverted to campaigning and all support and services for individuals had been closed down.

There is room, and need for, both activism/campaigning and advocacy/service provision in this area too.

It is a tragedy when the energy and imagination of activism/campaigning is turned against allies. It weakens all of us.

I really feel for the parents caught in the cross-fire. It is not even as if KD and SW are rivals of Genspect, ie. offering to provide alternative advocacy/services.

There was a quote about Thatcher that I am struggling to remember, along the lines of, "If you destroy all those around you, do not be surprised when find yourself alone in the wilderness".

The tragedy is that, without the likes of Genspect, it is parents who will find themselves again alone in the wilderness. KD and SW have nothing to lose in going after Genspect. The parents who support and rely on them have everything to lose.

gcrhino · 12/03/2022 13:40

"The tragedy is that, without the likes of Genspect, it is parents who will find themselves again alone in the wilderness. KD and SW have nothing to lose in going after Genspect. The parents who support and rely on them have everything to lose."

THANK YOU!!!

So frustrating. If people don't want Debbie Hayton on UK News discussing this, fine... then show me the other people who will talk about what's happening to our kids. I don't care if it's Posie, Debbie, Joanna Cherry, we need EVERYONE to be talking about this. I have never once met another mum in my parent support group who disagrees with this. We don't have the luxury of time.

terryleather · 12/03/2022 14:55

@Solidarityovercharity

Every time you silence a parent or an organisation who speaks for parents then you are inadvertently enabling a cult thats gives mastectomies to young and vulnerable teenagers *@terryleather* There is nothing wrong with amplifying the voices of trans widows and their children but there is everything wrong with doing so at the expense of Other Vulnerable People
Pointing out the problems with amplifying the voices of males such as Hayton is not silencing "other vulnerable people".
Cailleach1 · 12/03/2022 15:00

[quote 264MyShirt]Genspect thread here:

Genspect rebuttal and reaction to [Ex thread cont.]
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4501765-Genspect-rebuttal-and-reaction-to-Ex-thread-cont[/quote]
Not @ ing you MyShirt. Just wanted the link from Thursday at 19:16

Cailleach1 · 12/03/2022 15:22

@Lineaxxxxcc

Please continue on new dedicated Genspect rebuttal thread unless specifically referring to Exulansic.
But op, you had created another thread which was to be a dedicated Genspect rebuttal thread. To keep this one about TT Exulansic of the title. You're down as Lineaxxxxcc in the above post. Although that thread (of the link below) has since been deleted, a post by MyShirt giving the link still remains on this thread and I have quoted that above.

Genspect rebuttal and reaction to [Ex thread cont.]
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4501765-Genspect-rebuttal-and-reaction-to-Ex-thread-cont

Indeed, if nothing it has learned me to quote or screenshot any mention. However insignificant it may seem. You never know when something is going to be wiped away. And, then they'll be all sorts of accusations flying about!

I have asked MumsnetHQ if they could find that post from the deleted thread, so there is no confusion about what was said, and by whom. I wouldn't hold my breath though, as it is from a deleted thread.

How and ever, and in the heel of the hunt, it doesn't really matter who mentioned Cantor. I do think I have clarified that I never said you said supported Cantor or were an apologist for Cantor. And will try to word things less clumsily in the future.

264MyShirt · 12/03/2022 17:28

Some Previous Posters have mentioned that they are "first timers" to Mumsnet in posting on this thread and I think that includes some Parents.

For the avoidance of doubt and to reassure those parents, when parents such as those involved with Genspect have posted about their concerns as parents on this Board (Sex & Gender) they have been received as sympathetically and been given as much support as Trans Widows and Children of Transitioners.

This is, after all, primarily a Parenting Forum

Our aim is to:

  • Make parents' lives easier by pooling knowledge, advice and support.
  • We try, as far as possible to let the conversation flow and not to over-moderate. Mumsnet is a site for grown-ups.

www.mumsnet.com/i/about-us

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