YogabirthUK cancel event after Freddy McConnell flounce

[WinterTrees]

Saw this on twitter this morning but can't see a thread here.

Milli Hill was supposed to be appearing at an event run by YogabirthUK entitled 'Gender and Birth: A space to listen.' Milli was lined up to appear alongside Freddy McConnell and another speaker, but Freddy pulled out after the event was announced, on the grounds that Freddy could not appear 'alongside/after/in the same remote vicinity' as a birth specialist who recognises biological sex.

Full tantrum available here. twitter.com/millihill/status/1498060037536714752

The YogabirthUK Instagram link is worth looking at too. Lots of support for Milli Hill and regret about the cancellation of an event that was literally supposed to be providing 'space to listen', but the TRA input is interesting and very telling. (Spoiler alert: TRA claims MH is a disgusting transphobe for being exclusionary to transwomen when - crucially - Freddy is a transman. And excluded Freddyself.)

I am having one of those days when my patience with all this feels very thin. Very thin indeed.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

Unwisely, I just had a look at F's Instagram feed. I rarely use Instagram so find it hard to follow but happened on a mention of F using breastmilk donated by altruistic women to feed the baby. I don't imagine this is quite the scenario many of them had in mind when they chose to donate. F opted to have a double mastectomy and now blames clinicians for not pointing out the blindingly obvious fact that F is now unable to breastfeed a baby.

Where would you even start to unpick that? 'I identify as male, I have a male name now, you should use he/him pronouns for me, I am on testosterone, I am applying for a GRC, I need a double mastectomy because my body is causing me severe dysphoria'. Would you seriously expect a clinician to deduce that the first thing F would do after getting the GRC would be to hotfoot it to the fertility clinic to get pregnant, and would then expect to feed the baby from the breasts that were causing such dysphoria that they needed to be surgically removed?

Yeah, I know. You couldn’t make any of this up, could you?

What an ego.

If someone is a severley gender dysphoric woman, who needs to have hormones and surgeries to help with mental dis-ease, who then identifies as a sea horse and goes on to have children, WHILST being extremely offended by other people mentioning biological reality then i would say this person is very mentally unwell/unstable. Why are unhinged people having mental breakdowns getting in the way of society functioning normally. Surely events for the 99.999% of normal women/mothers should still go ahead as planned, and mental health support offered to this individual. Pandering to someone's delusions is not helpful, for anyone.

WHERE ARE ALL THE ADULTS?

These people live in cloud cuckoo land, @FrancescaContini. There is going to be a lot of heartache from transmen who miscarry, lose babies close to term, have traumatic deliveries of premature babies, have weeks of NICU, and all because of a series of health care professionals who don't demand the same level of evidence as there is behind all other areas of care.

It's morally corrupt. What happened to "first do no harm?"

That infant could have been predicted to have been early. And FM was going to swan off abroad to deliver somewhere that would pander to a self indulgent prospective parent?

Did NO ONE say "not sure that's a great idea, mate"? Was FM really surrounded by a team saying "you go, girl. I mean, shit, sorry, I mean you go. Just go"?

That baby could have died because we are all pretending that it is totally normal for a trans man to give birth. We should treat these pregnancies as being normal as those in 55 year old women - not wrong, not "you can't", just "needs extra care" and "maybe you'd better think about the well being of your infant and stay close to home instead of making this child part of your political campaign?"

I'm so disgusted with health care. That baby could have died, or been poorly from all the complications of prematurity - because a series of midwives and obstetricians are not brave or bright enough to say "no".

It's not right.

What did we all expect? Social media is the most ego building tool I could ever imagine.

So here we have the first wave of adults, who as children grew up on social media. Of course they are going to be totally egotistical.

Its just why are we not better holding space, holding society together whilst this generation works their shit out. The elders need to keep it together.

People need to take responsibility for allowing children to have social media and phones. How many parents benefitted from the peace and quiet of having their kids absorbed on their phones.

Now they have grown up unhinged and self obsessed, and we are blaming them?

Adults are supposed to guide children and help them become part of society. It feels like a whole generation of parents failed in doing that.

I actually have a degree of sympathy with Yoga Birth UK. I don't know anything about them as an organisation but the yoga community is generally pretty big on acceptance and connection and all that jazz, so I imagine that the event would have been a sincere (if rather naive, to those of us who have been at this rodeo for a while) attempt to provide 'a space to listen' and find common ground, which was how the event was billed.

I've just been back to check out their instagram post again and the comments are enough to put anyone's chakras out of balance. Lots of piety around safety and how they were irresponsible, tone deaf and inappropriate in inviting Freddy to be on a panel with a known transphobe. Lots of understandable disappointment from women about the cancellation of an event they were looking forward to. Lots of understandable anger from women fed up of the silencing and censorship. Lots of 'shame on you' from everyone, of all opinions.

I was wrong about the comments having been edited and deleted. Here's the one I saw before, which comes from a rainbow haired 19 year old (who clearly looks female but uses the pronouns he/they/it)

the two could not mix. a terf is literally a feminist who excludes the rights of transgender women from their advocacy of women's rights. also if u think terf is a slur imagine being queer LMAO i have no sympathy for u.

I found it interesting that he/they/it would automatically specify the rights of transwomen in their eagerness to be seen as an ally, when trans women are utterly irrelevant to the issue under discussion.

This is why organisations just keep quiet. The fallout from trying to be even-handed and genuinely open-minded is something no one wants to bring down on themselves or their lovely business. But god, every time this happens so many more people have their eyes opened wide.

I have unwisely got into an Insta 'conversation' with someone about this, because I messaged YogaBirthUK to ask why they didn't just go ahead with a different speaker.
This person tells me that it's because the event would be 'transphobic', because the speaker is a 'transphobe' and would 'be speaking in a transphobic way'.
So that clears that up.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria I'm so disgusted with health care. That baby could have died, or been poorly from all the complications of prematurity - because a series of midwives and obstetricians are not brave or bright enough to say "no".

I don’t disagree with your comment overall but honestly the days of midwives & obstetricians doing pre-conceptual counselling are kind of over.

The only time I see pregnant trans men is when they are well & truly pregnant. It’s too late by then.

“ This person tells me that it's because the event would be 'jelly ding dong', because the speaker is a 'jelly ding dong' and would 'be speaking in a jelly ding dong way'.“

I think this makes more sense.

@KittenKong

“ This person tells me that it's because the event would be 'jelly ding dong', because the speaker is a 'jelly ding dong' and would 'be speaking in a jelly ding dong way'.“

I think this makes more sense.

@DameHelena

I have unwisely got into an Insta 'conversation' with someone about this, because I messaged YogaBirthUK to ask why they didn't just go ahead with a different speaker. This person tells me that it's because the event would be 'transphobic', because the speaker is a 'transphobe' and would 'be speaking in a transphobic way'. So that clears that up.

Jeez DameHelena rather you than me.

It might be only slightly less excruciating than birthing a pineapple but I think its an important conversation to have. Trawling through the comments on the YBUK post I noticed that the GC ones have a shitload more likes than the pious TRA ones. I'm grateful to those who are holding the line.

@daretodenim

The organisers of this event should be ashamed of themselves. There's no reason why it couldn't have gone ahead minus a panellist. Sure, had it been all about Freddie and Freddie's "lived experience", it would have been impossible to hold without Freddie. But it wasn't. The people at fault here re the organisers (women?) who cancelled it. Freddie is insignificant to women's experiences of giving birth. After all, Freddie isn't a woman, right?

It is a great shame they cancelled. But I don't blame them for retreating from the ridiculous tantrums of the TRAs. If they'd gone ahead without Freddie this would have been the best option, but it would have involved attacks from TRAs.

Imagine hating women so much that you attack them talking about the basic biological function that brought you into the world.

He says in his Instagram story that YBUK should change the line up to be more trans inclusionary.

How much more inclusionary can you get than having a trans person on the panel?

But then he dropped out.

It doesn't make any sense.

[quote AgathaMystery]@vivariumvivariumsvivaria I'm so disgusted with health care. That baby could have died, or been poorly from all the complications of prematurity - because a series of midwives and obstetricians are not brave or bright enough to say "no".

I don’t disagree with your comment overall but honestly the days of midwives & obstetricians doing pre-conceptual counselling are kind of over.

The only time I see pregnant trans men is when they are well & truly pregnant. It’s too late by then.[/quote]
And to be honest, I doubt Freddy would have listened to advice. Lets' remember that Freddy considers it the fault of their gender consultant for not explaining to 28 year old Freddy that a double mastectomy would mean breastfeeding was not an option.

Taking responsibility for decisions is not a strength.

YBUK's first transphobic hate crime was holding an event called 'a space to listen.' Obviously it should have been 'a space to validate.'

I presume FM supports children taking puberty blockers and hormones if they don't adhere to stereotypes, so I'm surprised they were so precious about the milk their baby received.

I find Freddie utterly repellent and have enormous pity for the HCPs who attended the two births as Freddie will have been monitoring them for the slightest slip up so Freddie could later screech about the dreadful transphobia Freddie experiences when some poor exhausted overworked midwife said ‘she’.

I feel even more sorry for Freddie’s children being raised by this deluded, selfish, narcissistic individual. Gaslit into believing Freddie is their father when in fact Freddie is their mother and no amount of tantrumming and court appeals can change that. At least they will have each other as adults when reflecting on and dealing with the fallout of their absolute car crash of a childhood.

@Natashakatebythegate

I find Freddie utterly repellent and have enormous pity for the HCPs who attended the two births as Freddie will have been monitoring them for the slightest slip up so Freddie could later screech about the dreadful transphobia Freddie experiences when some poor exhausted overworked midwife said ‘she’.

I feel even more sorry for Freddie’s children being raised by this deluded, selfish, narcissistic individual. Gaslit into believing Freddie is their father when in fact Freddie is their mother and no amount of tantrumming and court appeals can change that. At least they will have each other as adults when reflecting on and dealing with the fallout of their absolute car crash of a childhood.

How is Freddie going to explain childbirth then? I can't get my head round that.

I think you’re all being a bit unfair, Freddie has also posted about the difficulties in visiting their family’s holiday home in Spain. Where is your compassion?

@Natashakatebythegate

I find Freddie utterly repellent and have enormous pity for the HCPs who attended the two births as Freddie will have been monitoring them for the slightest slip up so Freddie could later screech about the dreadful transphobia Freddie experiences when some poor exhausted overworked midwife said ‘she’.

I feel even more sorry for Freddie’s children being raised by this deluded, selfish, narcissistic individual. Gaslit into believing Freddie is their father when in fact Freddie is their mother and no amount of tantrumming and court appeals can change that. At least they will have each other as adults when reflecting on and dealing with the fallout of their absolute car crash of a childhood.

Couldn’t agree with you more.

To be fair to Freddy, I’m pretty sure he came off the testosterone supplements before starting fertility treatment. So the problem with the placenta in this pregnancy was probably nothing to do with that. One of my friends had the same issue in her second pregnancy and was induced early. I don’t think it’s rare.

Regarding Freddy’s mum’s crowdfunder, I admit that I’m surprised to see it still open and taking the occasional donation. It still reads: “If Freddy is unable to travel to Sweden for any reason, all money raised will be refunded.”

Slightly off topic but I bought Milli Hill's book on periods for my autistic daughter. Fantastic book.

I can't believe we are at the point where even thinking about biology is transphobic. All of us came from a woman, some of us came from girls but none of us are ever birthed by a male.

@Cattenberg

To be fair to Freddy, I’m pretty sure he came off the testosterone supplements before starting fertility treatment. So the problem with the placenta in this pregnancy was probably nothing to do with that. One of my friends had the same issue in her second pregnancy and was induced early. I don’t think it’s rare.

Regarding Freddy’s mum’s crowdfunder, I admit that I’m surprised to see it still open and taking the occasional donation. It still reads: “If Freddy is unable to travel to Sweden for any reason, all money raised will be refunded.”

I’ve just had a look at the gofundme page. They’re asking for money for a bilingual doula The vast majority of women giving birth “get what they’re given”. Imagine asking strangers to pay for your doula…what extra special level of special person does this birthing mother think she is?

@Cattenberg

To be fair to Freddy, I’m pretty sure he came off the testosterone supplements before starting fertility treatment. So the problem with the placenta in this pregnancy was probably nothing to do with that. One of my friends had the same issue in her second pregnancy and was induced early. I don’t think it’s rare.

Regarding Freddy’s mum’s crowdfunder, I admit that I’m surprised to see it still open and taking the occasional donation. It still reads: “If Freddy is unable to travel to Sweden for any reason, all money raised will be refunded.”

No, I don't think that's what would happen. I don't know, because there doesn't seem to be any research, but tstostosterone had permanent effects on female bodies. It makes female people menopausal - so FM's uterus is not, I think, FM's biological age. It's less efficient, has to be, because it's had reduced oestrogen.

growth problems happen for many reasons, true - but they are common, in fact, routine, in older mothers.

The crowdfunded is still open? Really? hoiks up judgy pants

I find it extremely worrying that there is no research and I can well believe that the people qualified to do the research are either steering clear because it would be career suicide or have been actively deterred by colleagues or ethical panels worried about reputational damage if they are attacked for even posing the question that it might be harmful to a female body to deliberately increase testosterone way to something more like a male level.

However, it's one thing for a patient to say 'I want to do this to myself, regardless of the long-term consequences for my health'.

It's quite another for a patient to say 'I want to do this to myself, and as I plan to get pregnant soon I also want to do this to my baby'.

We would expect HCPs to tell a woman who was a smoker or a heavy drinker or regular user of recreational drugs AND was planning to conceive that she was not just doing her own health no good but might also harm the baby if she did conceive.

Do staff in fertility and gender clinics spell this out to transmen who want to become pregnant? If they don't, how is this ethical?