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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

YogabirthUK cancel event after Freddy McConnell flounce

234 replies

WinterTrees · 28/02/2022 14:40

Saw this on twitter this morning but can't see a thread here.

Milli Hill was supposed to be appearing at an event run by YogabirthUK entitled 'Gender and Birth: A space to listen.' Milli was lined up to appear alongside Freddy McConnell and another speaker, but Freddy pulled out after the event was announced, on the grounds that Freddy could not appear 'alongside/after/in the same remote vicinity' as a birth specialist who recognises biological sex.

Full tantrum available here. twitter.com/millihill/status/1498060037536714752

The YogabirthUK Instagram link is worth looking at too. Lots of support for Milli Hill and regret about the cancellation of an event that was literally supposed to be providing 'space to listen', but the TRA input is interesting and very telling. (Spoiler alert: TRA claims MH is a disgusting transphobe for being exclusionary to transwomen when - crucially - Freddy is a transman. And excluded Freddyself.)

I am having one of those days when my patience with all this feels very thin. Very thin indeed.

OP posts:
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OldCrone · 04/03/2022 16:13

To answer my own question, I've just read the Afghanistan article in the Guardian and Freddy says:
In 2011 I’d only come out to a handful of people in the UK, and taken tentative steps to socially transition from female to male.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/mar/12/trans-life-fond-memories-of-coming-out-in-afghanistan

But that whole article is so 'me, me, me', and shows how Freddy thinks being a man or a woman is all about role play.

As the months passed, I became more uncomfortable playing the female role in Afghan society.

I came out to my boss as trans...One week I worked as female, the next week as male. This meant taking on different roles and working with different kids.

So Freddy was doing a Pips Bunce with gender fluidity. Did the children know what sex Freddy was? Did their parents and the other adults caring for them? At least it was a woman role-playing a man, rather than the other way round which would raise far more red flags.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 04/03/2022 17:06

Found a Vice article FM wrote - 34, 2 failed rounds of embryo transfer, so did IUI, got pregnant. Mentions the older child, with "he" and "son" which surprised me.

www.vice.com/amp/en/article/5db75q/transgender-man-pregnant-experience

AlsoNotAGirl · 04/03/2022 18:10

I’m struck by how enmeshed FM is with their parents even at 34. And I thought they were younger.

I wonder how much the parents and other siblings conform to gender roles?

It always strikes people would be much happier if they didn't feel they had to conform to one or the other but could just go with the mix that suited them and not put a name on it.

abeanbaked · 04/03/2022 19:53

Just shared the final instalment of the child's birth story. F says that they have always turned their nose up at people who have sections and assumed it must be really disappointing (not exact words but that's what I got from it). Surely there would be nothing more 'disappointing' than, as someone who has taken many drastic measures towards being identified as a male, having another life come out of you. This is the most female thing you can do. I do not compute. And as for the chest feeding thing. 🙄

MangyInseam · 04/03/2022 20:43

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

Yes, but most parents learn very early on that it isn't kind to give in to your child's every whim. You have to learn to say no and mean it. As your child grows up, it becomes clear some are not as mentally strong and resilient as others. Your job then is not to wrap that child in cotton wool and assist them in avoiding everything they fear, or nod along to every deluded thought they have. Terrifying as it is, your job is to be there to support them while they do their best to cope, and to look after them if they have a setback. Also, to hold firm about what's true and real and immovable.

We would all recognise that a parent who colluded with a child with an eating disorder was failing in their basic duty of care. The kind thing there, no matter what the child says at the time, is to get them professional help.

I'm not sure this is so accepted now as it used to be. There are a fair number of parents who really seem to believe that their job is to be "supportive" no matter what. I think most would stop short of encouraging anorexia, but there seems little general recognition that not going though hard things, and confronting difficult realities, actually leaves kids worse off.

That's what a lot of the adolescent gender stuff is based on - parents can't deal with the fact that their kids are really struggling with the psychological challenges of puberty. So they try and sidestep them, completely failing to realize that the struggle is an important part of the process.

Datun · 05/03/2022 09:08

From that Children of Transitioners link.

When children are used as accessories to transition, as validation or as an emotional resource, who speaks for us? When people start using their gender identity to control our legal documents, who speaks for us? When Freddie goes to court, who is speaking for her son?

It's a really good review.

FrancescaContini · 05/03/2022 10:24

@Datun

From that Children of Transitioners link.

When children are used as accessories to transition, as validation or as an emotional resource, who speaks for us? When people start using their gender identity to control our legal documents, who speaks for us? When Freddie goes to court, who is speaking for her son?

It's a really good review.

Yes, this paragraph in particular really stood out for me. Doesn’t the birth certificate belong to the child and not the parent?
Melroses · 05/03/2022 10:44

Shouldn't children be appointed a guardian in these court cases?

Datun · 05/03/2022 10:47

Yes, this paragraph in particular really stood out for me. Doesn’t the birth certificate belong to the child and not the parent?

Yes it does. The child and their documentation is being used to validate the parent. It's so wrong.

The same way that women, in their own spaces, are used as a resource to validate men who want access.

Cattenberg · 05/03/2022 11:13

Didn’t Freddy’s solicitor argue that the change would be in the best interests of SJ? Freddy has feared that SJ might be exposed to ridicule for having a birth certificate naming his mother as “Alfred McConnell”. He also suggested that he might have trouble travelling abroad with SJ due to the mismatch between his documents and SJ’s.

That said, Freddy was pregnant with SJ when he vowed to get SJ “an accurate birth certificate”, so it’s not as though SJ has had any say in the matter.

KittenKong · 05/03/2022 11:34

Who sees the birth cert? Who sees the kids parent? I don’t think the birth cert will cause all that many questions and this story has already been all over the media so it’s hardly a secret s

Datun · 05/03/2022 11:48

Good grief. If you're worried that your child might be affected by your departure from reality it's not the child that needs to change.

FrancescaContini · 05/03/2022 11:50

@KittenKong

Who sees the birth cert? Who sees the kids parent? I don’t think the birth cert will cause all that many questions and this story has already been all over the media so it’s hardly a secret s
Quite. Nobody has ever asked to see my or my children’s passport except at airports/when applying for a new passport. I imagine this is the case for most people. So how would recording F as the mother - which is the truth - expose the child to ridicule?

Or was the passport/legal battle all about keeping F and their story and their narrative of victimhood centre stage?

FrancescaContini · 05/03/2022 11:51

Sorry - I mean: who asks to see the birth certificate? Not passport Blush

loislovesstewie · 05/03/2022 16:08

Passports and birth certificates have to be produced on occasion for the purposes of ID. I've seen lots when I was processing applications for people who want to apply on the housing register, and I've had to send my documents recently after the death of my DH.
Clearly my documents had to be factually correct to prove my relationship with DH and to prove I am a British Citizen.

KittenKong · 05/03/2022 16:26

I can’t remember last time I was asked for my birth cert, possibly when I got married? Otherwise… nope.

miri1985 · 05/03/2022 16:48

@Cattenberg

Didn’t Freddy’s solicitor argue that the change would be in the best interests of SJ? Freddy has feared that SJ might be exposed to ridicule for having a birth certificate naming his mother as “Alfred McConnell”. He also suggested that he might have trouble travelling abroad with SJ due to the mismatch between his documents and SJ’s.

That said, Freddy was pregnant with SJ when he vowed to get SJ “an accurate birth certificate”, so it’s not as though SJ has had any say in the matter.

I've always thought about the birth cert that having no Mother listed would cause infinitely more trouble than having a Mother listed with a male name. I would expect that systems are designed nowadays for no Father to be listed on a birth cert but that many databases would consider a Mothers name to be a required field.

Surely if the worry is that the child will be ridiculed because of the Mother having a male name the answer would be to choose a gender neutral name or a name that can be a nickname for a male/female name such as Freddy, I've met female Freddys, I wouldn't bat an eyelid if I saw someones Mother listed as Freddy McConnell. It seems like the obvious solution if the child is acutally the concern

loislovesstewie · 05/03/2022 16:51

As only biological females can give birth having no mother registered at all, is not factually correct is it?

OhHolyJesus · 05/03/2022 19:01

I can't think of any situation where a birth certificate would be requested and the male name of SJ's mother would result in ridicule. Questions to confirm, possibly some mild surprise, but ridicule? Plenty of people have neutral sounding names and James can be a girls name. I really don't think it would be that shocking to someone processing some admin task, they probably see all kinds.

SJ will go to school and his friends and the teachers will refer to F as SJ's Daddy. You don't need to show a BC to enrol a child of school age into a school. GPS surgeries and hospital staff would be respectful, goodness knows they might pay for it with their job if they don't. You don't need a BC to get treatment, only to register initially so, as that should already have been done, SJ won't need to do it himself and face ridicule.

I genuinely can't think of a situation where it might be an issue based on having to show the birth certificate. This sounds like an emotive tactic from the lawyer who is worthy of checking out by the way...

OhHolyJesus · 05/03/2022 19:07

@Melroses

Shouldn't children be appointed a guardian in these court cases?
CAFCASS would represent a child involved in a court case.

The court case ruling still makes interesting reading.

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/McConnell-and-YY-judgment-Final.pdf

Goatsaregreat · 05/03/2022 19:57

Good to read in that judgement that the rights of the child were a primary consideration by the court and government - not the demands of Freddie.

Cattenberg · 05/03/2022 22:24

63 […]“As the parties themselves submitted during the hearing, there are many, inter-linked pieces of legislation which may be affected if the word “mother” is no longer to be used to describe the person who gives birth to a child.”

64. We were told at the hearing by counsel for Mr McConnell that the word “mother” is used 45 times in the Children Act 1989 alone. Importantly, in our view, that is the word that is used in section 2(2)(a) of that Act. It provides that a mother has automatic parental responsibility for a child from the moment of birth. No-one else has that automatic parental responsibility, including the father. There is no need for any registration document for that purpose. The fact of giving birth to a child has that effect as a matter of operation of law. It can readily be understood why this could be important in practice. From the moment of birth someone must have parental responsibility for a newly born child, for example, to authorise medical treatment and more generally to become responsible for its care.

65. Furthermore, as Mr Jaffey submitted, it cannot simply be a question of this Court substituting a word such as “parent” for the word “mother”. This is because the word “parent” has a distinct meaning which has been given to it by Parliament in other legislation. This has been the product of considered legislative change over several decades, in various statutes, including the HFEA 1990 and the HFEA 2008.”

“... under the 2008 Act, at birth a child always has one mother, who is the woman who bore her; may also have a female or male co-parent; may never have more than one male parent; and may not have more than two parents by birth.”

I knew some of this, but it’s great to see it in a legal judgement. Allowing Freddy to be named as his child’s father on his birth certificate wouldn’t just affect trans parents. It would have legal ramifications for everyone. I’m not opposing this change because I’m a hateful bigot. I’m saying it shouldn’t happen unilaterally at the request of one special interest group, without a wider discussion of the issues.

The judgement goes on to explain why any change to the law should be a matter for Parliament.

The political process allows legislators to acquire information to inform policy decisions from the widest possible range of opinions. We have no idea, for example, whether all trans men object to the use of the word “mother” to refer to them when they have given birth to a child. It may be that some at least wish to have the automatic responsibility for the child to whom they have given birth which section 2 of the Children Act 1989 currently gives them. Moreover, we do not have evidence before this Court as to how other members of society would feel if they were no longer to be referred to on their child’s birth certificate as a mother or a father but simply as “parent 1” and “parent 2”. Those were among the possible ways forward which were suggested on behalf of the Appellants. In our view this illustrates how inapt the subject-matter is for determination by the courts as compared with Parliament. “If there is to be reform of the complicated, inter-linked legislation in this context, it must be for Parliament and not for this Court.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 06/03/2022 00:01

If anyone tries to make me "parent 1" or "parent 2" instead of "mother" I will cause civil unrest.

Me, alone. I will be a one woman furious protest. I will show the law makers my fanny scars, my sagging tits, I will tell them about the mastitis, tit thrush, bitten boobs, infected uterus with retained placenta, the prolapse, the worry, the fear, and the fucking joy. I will tell them how my body was linked to theirs, that it responded to them before I knew it. I will tell them that I am not a "parent" of any numeration, but that I earned the title "mother" and they can take it away from me after I finish counting to "one...two..."

Me alone? No, I daresay I'll have company from all the other women who have sat up at night with a poorly infant, with the hot sticky fevers and the vomiting and the velcro baby and the learning as you go and the endless need and the endless joy.

I fucking dare you. We are legion. And we never, ever get to "three".

Fuck. Right. Off.

BettyFilous · 06/03/2022 07:23

@FrancescaContini

Sorry - I mean: who asks to see the birth certificate? Not passport Blush
I didn’t take my husband’s name on marriage. Pre-pandemic I got ahead of my husband with our kids in the passport control queue on return to Heathrow and presented our passports. The guard noted that my children had different surnames and asked if I had a copy of their birth certificates (I do, in our travel document pouch because I’d heard it might be an issue), but called my husband over instead. It is a ‘thing’.
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 06/03/2022 07:52

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

If anyone tries to make me "parent 1" or "parent 2" instead of "mother" I will cause civil unrest.

Me, alone. I will be a one woman furious protest. I will show the law makers my fanny scars, my sagging tits, I will tell them about the mastitis, tit thrush, bitten boobs, infected uterus with retained placenta, the prolapse, the worry, the fear, and the fucking joy. I will tell them how my body was linked to theirs, that it responded to them before I knew it. I will tell them that I am not a "parent" of any numeration, but that I earned the title "mother" and they can take it away from me after I finish counting to "one...two..."

Me alone? No, I daresay I'll have company from all the other women who have sat up at night with a poorly infant, with the hot sticky fevers and the vomiting and the velcro baby and the learning as you go and the endless need and the endless joy.

I fucking dare you. We are legion. And we never, ever get to "three".

Fuck. Right. Off.

Brava!
YogabirthUK cancel event after Freddy McConnell flounce
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