Grace Lavery & Helen Joyce debate 1/4/2022 It is real

[highame]

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1494746862158553088

It is real apparently. Hosted by Unheard

[quote rabbitwoman]Grace is definitely, definitely gearing up to drop out:

twitter.com/graceelavery/status/1495207533526466562?t=m3YsQVPmrpzeGd7nq2ypxQ&s=19[/quote]

Succinct reply:

@Helleofabore

Is Rosa Freedman the person helping Lavery or doing another debate?

I mean either way should improve Lavery’s contribution for the night. Hopefully.

I doubt this is true.

Lavery said that the GC woman helping was "terrified of her own side", which I don't think is true of Rosa.

Personally, I think the mystery GC woman helping out is probably a trans woman.

tiphaine

Ha!!

Surely somewhere someone with some political clout (starmer?) is looking at this and going oohhhhhh..... NOW I understand....

And if not, why not?

GL throwing their toys out of their pram so quickly is helpful. I’d been talking to DH about whether we could rearrange a social engagement on 1 April. As you were…

This is pretty pathetic. Lavery has called HJ a fascist not worth engaging with, has made it clear that Lavery isn't participating in good faith and has told supporters to stay away. No-one who is confident in their position does that.

Helen has the measure of the Prof

twitter.com/hjoycegender/status/1495370148525531139?s=21

Perfect from Helen. The comparison is striking.
How the hell do these people manage to hold down jobs (or get appointed in the first place)?
And how the hell do they get to be considered as experts in any shape or form? Beggars belief.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria
Good point made a page or two back. Not sure you're taggable, @Boadicea2 which is curious in itself.
Don't know why I woudn't be taggable - I haven't touched any settings.
I too have attended meetings on this topic which have meant wandering around "central London" waiting for the venue to be announced.
Waiting with bated breath to see if I get my money back for this one.

[quote Helen8220]@Cwenthryth
Hmmm!!!! I just happen to have that day off. I’ve bought a ticket to attend in person. I’m genuinely interested to hear what Grace has to say.

I figure if Grace doesn’t turn up - which is what everyone expects - it’ll still be a good night to meet and chat with likeminded women. The bar could be very interesting, if the event also attracts transactivist attendees who actually want to come into the venue and listen to what is being said, rather than just stand outside and shout abuse as they usually do! And maybe Grace will surprise us, which would be great, because as I said, genuinely interested in an actual honest in-person discussion between a vocal TRA and HJ.

I think I’m going to get a ticket to go in person, just need to check my diary. I would be really interested to meet and talk to GC people in real life - I had a chat recently with a couple of GC women who were protesting outside a government department and happened to be getting coffee in my local coffee shop, and it was so much more constructive and positive than all the online discussions/arguments I’ve been involved in.

I suspect I’ll find the actual event a bit depressing though - from what you’ve posted of GL I’m not sure she’s the person I want arguing ‘my side’ of the debate….[/quote]
Oh, ello! Not seen you round here for a while (might've been reading the wrong threads).

The more I read about GL the more I think I'd be a bit frustrated about them being the voice of the TRA side in the debate. But hey, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. The Andy Lewis letter debate has been about as good as it gets so far, in my eyes, and that was awful.

Good Lord, all the dramatics, the talk of 'harm' as if a talk with Helen Joyce would suck the world into a black hole ffs. It's fucking ridiculous.

Narcs are gonna narc. Helen has called Lavery's bluff, and they don't like it one little bit.

Hello @bishophaha ….. I was going to ask who you were, but I’m going to guess from your username that you might be the contributor formerly known as Cardinallolzy?

You’re right, I haven’t been around here much recently. I resolved to stay away, as it all feels a bit pointless and not particularly good for my mental health; but, as always, I seem to have found myself back here, checking out the hot topics of the day. No self-discipline, that’s my problem.

Having looked at GL’s Twitter today I do find her tone pretty unhelpful and annoying.

What was the Andy Lewis letter debate?

For anyone curious as to Grace's debating skills, here's an interview/discussion with the fabulous Nina Paley, and Grace.

www.heterodorx.com/podcast/episode-26-trano-a-trano-with-grace-lavery/

The more I read about GL the more I think I'd be a bit frustrated about them being the voice of the TRA side in the debate

Who would you prefer? Any suggestions?

What was the Andy Lewis letter debate?

Exchange of letters between Andy Lewis and Aaron Rabinowitz: Sceptics need to be Gender Critical.

letter.wiki/conversation/1232

I think that the TRAs are probably realising that Lavery is not going to be quite the person they want as the face of trans activism.

Lavery is flip flopping everywhere at the moment. Saying something one day and then denying it the next. Hardly credible except for being a world class self publicist.

I think that the TRAs are probably realising that Lavery is not going to be quite the person they want as the face of trans activism.

The problem TRAs have that no person can be that. The ideology is incoherent and doesn't stand up to any examination.

Hence #nodebate

Helen has the measure of the Prof

of course she does

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Well, we know that. They don’t see it though. And I think they know why they cannot find solid, reliable spokespeople. I cannot say more about why or I will be deleted.

The person I would like to see debate Helen Joyce is Christine Burns but that will happen on the 4th of never. Christine sets goals, works behind the scenes and achieves those goals - it was she and Stephen Whittle who got the GRA written as the first law in the world to give legal rights to transition without surgery (thanks David Lammy for getting that one passed). Her twitter account is genuinely frightening as one of her goals seems to be to establish for her trans followers that they are in deadly danger if they give any ground at all, ever, in any area.

As for GL, well, 1st April seems about right.

I'd assumed that Lavery's ego would preclude Lavery's realising that Lavery had committed to bringing the intellectual equivalent of a vuvuzela to an Uzi battle.

But possibly not?

@PermanentTemporary

The person I would like to see debate Helen Joyce is Christine Burns but that will happen on the 4th of never. Christine sets goals, works behind the scenes and achieves those goals - it was she and Stephen Whittle who got the GRA written as the first law in the world to give legal rights to transition without surgery (thanks David Lammy for getting that one passed). Her twitter account is genuinely frightening as one of her goals seems to be to establish for her trans followers that they are in deadly danger if they give any ground at all, ever, in any area.

As for GL, well, 1st April seems about right.

But this is ultimately what needs to happen, no? Those fighting for what they call 'trans rights' need to discuss, debate, explain and justify their reasoning. The conversations have to be had. And need to be had in a way that isn't some silly game of one-up-personship but in a mutually respectful manner that actually aims to find the best solution that suits everyone.

It's really not about 'winning' and 'losing', it's about finding common ground and solutions. Based on evidence and data and discourse.

We just have to get beyond the 'us' and 'them' stances.

I wish gc people would back off Lavery on Twitter for now & save the debate for when they/them are facing Helen Joyce. Lavery is floundering around like a clown in a circus on there & is going to be looking for a way out.

Yes domesticated zombie, exactly. It’s not a fucking game that one team wins and one team loses. I don’t think HJ sees it as that but that’s continually the opinion put forward by Lavery and followers.

Btw - I have fairly little sympathy for TRAs saying they don’t want Lavery representing them - no one else is, this is what “no debate, get over it” gets you.

This sort of stuff is largely about publicity. I don't know if it's the sort of publicity that's helpful. I'm reminded of the Battle of the Sexes tennis match between Bobby Whatsisame and Billie Jean King in about 1973 (I'll look it up in a minute!) Agreed that getting at GL on twitter is silly.