Grace Lavery & Helen Joyce debate 1/4/2022 It is real

[highame]

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1494746862158553088

It is real apparently. Hosted by Unheard

Is it just me, or does this read like Grace laying the groundwork for backing out already

I think Lavery is struggling between their own ego and need to be seen, and losing the support of UK MRAs who are reminding Lavery that it is supposed to be "No debate"

Oh, fantastic. I'm trans. Non-binary cis trans. I'll be on that zoom, Grace!

@RoyalCorgi

She also says there is a well known gender critical activist helping her prepare. Apparently this woman is terrified of her own 'side' and is keeping it hush.

It's understandable. Gender-critical feminists are scary as fuck. We have ribbons and everything.

I'm particularly terrifying because I have VELCRO.

@DomesticatedZombie

Oh, fantastic. I'm trans. Non-binary cis trans. I'll be on that zoom, Grace!

Acceptance without exception and all that.

Are you going to sit there in a cardigan eating biscuits and drinking tea?

Definitely. Maybe even knitting.

@Cwenthryth

Sorry, screenshot

And Grace Lavery - who I've had to look up - is an actual professor, at Berkeley, which is a real and respected university, actually comes out with stuff like this publicly? Jesus Christ.

And Grace Lavery - who I've had to look up - is an actual professor, at Berkeley, which is a real and respected university, actually comes out with stuff like this publicly? Jesus Christ.

Lots of people have the title of professor but it some places it means lecturer rather than an endowed chair (which is what lots of people still think it is).

I've no idea what Lavery is, tbh.

I've never heard of Freddie Sayers, does anyone know if he is neutral, or if not, which side he leans towards?

He usually appears neutral but Unherd has given a lot of airtime to feminists (often from a cancel culture starting point) and I would say he always lets women speak and explain what has happened.

mobile.twitter.com/kellyjane4good/status/1495145727969792000

Honestly, this is a conversation that needs to be had. Lavery must surely be intelligent and eloquent enough to offer a good discussion. I hope it happens.

@Cwenthryth

Is it just me, or does this read like Grace laying the groundwork for backing out already

Good Lord, all the dramatics, the talk of 'harm' as if a talk with Helen Joyce would suck the world into a black hole ffs. It's fucking ridiculous.

Is Rosa Freedman the person helping Lavery or doing another debate?

I mean either way should improve Lavery’s contribution for the night. Hopefully.

@Boadicea2 interesting that unlike any of the meetings organised by women's groups the venue is publically available.

Good point made a page or two back. Not sure you're taggable, @Boadicea2, which is curious in itself.

Yes, I've been to meetings of (mainly) middle aged women with no funding and no time which had to take place in "Manchester" - and we all went there to be told the exact location within 3 hours of the meeting for fear of getting hijacked by TRAs.

It's like the actual resistance for menopausal women. The known threat to society, women in their prime. FFS.

So, yes, I think you make a valuable point. If I was to organise a meeting today for the 1st April I'd be very, very careful about how I advertised it.

Grace is definitely, definitely gearing up to drop out:

twitter.com/graceelavery/status/1495207533526466562?t=m3YsQVPmrpzeGd7nq2ypxQ&s=19

@Helleofabore

Is Rosa Freedman the person helping Lavery or doing another debate?

I mean either way should improve Lavery’s contribution for the night. Hopefully.

If so, I'd be sad if she's spoken about other women in those terms.

Grace is definitely, definitely gearing up to drop out

What a very astonishing turn of events that would be.

Some of the twitter responses are pointing out that it was Lavery who issued the invitation in the first place.

I am finding this predictable, but very interesting.

Firstly, there does not seem to be any acknowledgement from GL or any of her followers that issuing an invitation to debate then obviously and publicly backing out shows huge weaknesses in their arguments.

Secondly, did Grace imagine that no one would answer her challenge? Did she think that GC feminists such as HJ were just as hesitant to debate as she is for the same reasons? Even for someone like Grace, I cannot imagine why she would issue such a bold challenge to debate only to make noises about backing out as soon as it is all arranged, unless she thought no-one would agree to do it?

To add to my list of people I would like to see step in at the last minute should grace not show I would love to add Robin Moira White. I think she would be great in a debate with Helen Joyce....

Are you going to sit there in a cardigan eating biscuits and drinking tea?
Definitely. Maybe even knitting. description of trans friend of mine

@Helleofabore

Is Rosa Freedman the person helping Lavery or doing another debate?

I mean either way should improve Lavery’s contribution for the night. Hopefully.

If it's Rosa Freedman (and I assume that's speculation) I can see why she would be a good choice to help steelman arguments and ensure a good discussion. (I'll ignore the alleged comments about GC women.)

I wonder, however, if GL is discovering that TERF Island is a relative Utopia compare to the US with many provisions and protections for trans people that they can scarcely conceive of there.

Hmmn. Could happen.

If so, I'd be sad if she's spoken about other women in those terms.

What terms? I would have to see Rosa say them directly, I couldn’t believe anything Lavery would say.

I notice Rosa has again deregistered her twitter but I thought I saw an exchange between her and Helen J. I assume that she may have offered some explanation on UK perspective but Lavery has bragged and bigged it up.

As Laverey has taken to calling Helen Joyce a fascist, I think we can safely say it must be Helen's fault for providing cutted up pear, as requested.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_classics/1301196-If-my-3yo-had-access-to-AIBU

[quote unwashedanddazed]As Laverey has taken to calling Helen Joyce a fascist, I think we can safely say it must be Helen's fault for providing cutted up pear, as requested.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_classics/1301196-If-my-3yo-had-access-to-AIBU[/quote]
And both Joyce and Bindel are described as outriders…

I don't think Lavery understands the UK situation well.

adultchild

I assume that is what any ‘GC’ feminist is attempting to do is explain the situation more clearly. But that is just my assumption.

Maybe it will make for a better debate so it won’t start like Glinner’s attempt with that skeptic that simply did nothing but sling crap which had to be pushed back.

I imagine Lavery will start by attempting to get Helen onto to back foot immediately having to ‘refute’ crap claims. Because that is their behaviour on twitter. Hopefully having a moderator will get rid of that.

I assume that is what any ‘GC’ feminist is attempting to do is explain the situation more clearly. But that is just my assumption.

In ‘advising’ Lavery I mean