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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What rights don't trans and nb people have?

146 replies

AlternativelyWired · 02/02/2022 16:50

Manchester councillor readies motion on improving trans rights across city www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/its-time-more-manchester-councillor-22950927

The article doesn't specify except to say the motion wants the council to state twaw.

OP posts:
DoubleYouOhEmAyEn · 02/02/2022 16:55

Trans & NB people have the same rights as everyone else. They are not disadvantaged in terms of rights at all.

AlternativelyWired · 02/02/2022 17:00

So what is the point the motion? Is the gay village still unwelcoming to lesbian feminists? I'm out of the loop these days. If lesbian feminists aren't welcome then things aren't equal are they?

OP posts:
SomeOwlsCoo · 02/02/2022 17:01

They have the same rights as everyone else.

But (some) trans and NB people want more.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 02/02/2022 17:04

Trans and nb have exactly the same human rights as everyone else

What some men want are woman’s rights too & they can’t have those because they are reserved for biological women

nauticant · 02/02/2022 17:05

The main one appears to be the right to never be told the word "no".

averylongtimeago · 02/02/2022 17:09

I have wondered this too. Perhaps one of our regular visitors could come and tell us what rights trans and nb people don't have.

Obviously if they are being denied the same rights as everyone else, then this is an issue that needs looking into.

FOJN · 02/02/2022 17:12

Being able to change the information on your birth certificate isn't a right available to the rest of us, some might call that a privilege.

AssignedBlobbyAtBirth · 02/02/2022 17:17

It passed unanimously Hmm

JellySaurus · 02/02/2022 17:23

'Trans and NB people' are no more a homogenous lump than Mumsnetters are.

Each set of trans and NB people have rights that the other set of trans and NB people want. Oddly enough, the clearest differentiator between these two sets of people is exactly the same thing that differentiates between the two sets of people that make up the entire human population of this planet.

Female trans and NB people have full right of access to all spaces and services designated for women. The other set of trans and NB people also want access to these spaces and services.

DomesticatedZombie · 02/02/2022 17:28

Anyone undergoing or proposing to undergo gender reassignment also is entitled to protection under the Equality Act. Trans people are also protected under Hate Crime Law in Scotland.

Women are not.

Funny, that.

Isthatthebestyoucando · 02/02/2022 17:36

Trans people had the right to same sex marriage before homosexuals through the GRA. It took 10 years I think for gay people to be equal to them.

Signalbox · 02/02/2022 17:38

Male trans and male nb want the right to unfettered access to all women’s spaces and opportunities i.e to do away with the exceptions in the Equality Act.

The other right they appear to want is the right to change any documents that references their sex and change it to state the opposite or add an X to obscure their sex. This is not a human right (because we are not all entitled to do this) but a trans specific right.

drwitch · 02/02/2022 17:46

I think the relevant question is not "what rights do they not have" ?(because I can see that they may suffer more from violence and discrimination in public spaces and access to health and mental support is poor. In many places in the US their access to employment is compromised (which is more damaging as social benefits are so pants there))

It is what increase in rights do they not have currently that that would be given if they were treated as the opposite sex for all purposes?

drwitch · 02/02/2022 17:47

sorry meant to edit this rather than send. - I meant to say how would their rights to live as human beings and as full members of society be improved if...

anothersmahedmug · 02/02/2022 17:53

Ok I will write this because I think the more we understand other people thoughts and beliefs the better

But First look at womens rights

So we have female toilets for example because if toilets were for everyone then women would self exclude.

We have women only shortlists because having a level playing field by law doesn't work yet

So rights can be added when the basic rights that apply to everyone are insufficient to enable everyone to participate equally in society

So from a transgender perspective- can they participate in society with the sane freedom as others ? If no then they want additional rights to enable them to do so

They may well say no - is there any transgender representation in parliament? Are transgender people put off going out because they are uncomfortable with the toilet /changing facilities available? Do they find it more difficult to get employment?

So they may want rights to adjust the balance.

( personally I think you need a definition of transgender that isn't " I say so" and you need to adjust the balance without harming others ... I hate to say level up )

But I don't think we can deny that they may have a case for additional rights

SantaClawsServiette · 02/02/2022 17:58

The statement itself could have a reasonable meaning - maybe it's not about having new rights but making sure the ones they have are being respected in a better way. Around employment, for example.

But people often seem to think it means they need something new. Like a new project.

KarenTheGammonRemoaner · 02/02/2022 18:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

KarenTheGammonRemoaner · 02/02/2022 18:05

It's like the old "progress", always touted as happening but never stated towards what end.

Signalbox · 02/02/2022 18:21

@anothersmahedmug

Ok I will write this because I think the more we understand other people thoughts and beliefs the better

But First look at womens rights

So we have female toilets for example because if toilets were for everyone then women would self exclude.

We have women only shortlists because having a level playing field by law doesn't work yet

So rights can be added when the basic rights that apply to everyone are insufficient to enable everyone to participate equally in society

So from a transgender perspective- can they participate in society with the sane freedom as others ? If no then they want additional rights to enable them to do so

They may well say no - is there any transgender representation in parliament? Are transgender people put off going out because they are uncomfortable with the toilet /changing facilities available? Do they find it more difficult to get employment?

So they may want rights to adjust the balance.

( personally I think you need a definition of transgender that isn't " I say so" and you need to adjust the balance without harming others ... I hate to say level up )

But I don't think we can deny that they may have a case for additional rights

I always think it would be much easier to help trans people from a position of reality. The denial of sex and accusations of transphobia aimed at everyone who will not go along with the idea that twaw just gets people’s backs up and takes the focus away from things that could be done that would actually make a difference to trans people’s lives.
FOJN · 02/02/2022 18:27

But I don't think we can deny that they may have a case for additional rights

Those additional rights should never be at the expense of women and I'm far to tired and angry to fight for the rights of a group who would happily take mine.

DomesticatedZombie · 02/02/2022 18:48

edinburghath.tumblr.com/post/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto/

I was going to do selected highlights, but stuff it, have the lot, this is too good:

....We will fight anyone who stands in the way of universal liberation. This is war, and we will win.

TRANS HEALTH MANIFESTO

Trans health is bodily autonomy. We will express our needs, and they will be met. We will change our bodies however we want. We will have universally accessible and freely available hormones & blockers, surgical procedures, and any other relevant treatments and therapies. We will end the medical gatekeeping of our bodies. We will have full, historical accountability for the abuses perpetuated against us in the name of 'healthcare’. We will see reparations for these crimes, and the crimes committed against others in our names.

We are not too ill, too disabled, too anxious, too depressed, too psychotic, too Mad, too foreign, too young, too old, too fat, too thin, too poor, or too queer to make decisions about our bodies and our futures. We are all self-medicating. Our agency will be recognised. We each labour far harder for the health of ourselves and those around us than any doctor ever has, and we will continue build supportive communities on principles of mutual aid.

We deny the separation of bodies, minds, and selves - a violence against any part of us is a violence against all of us. We believe that the epidemic of chronic conditions in our communities is a consequence of the war of attrition waged against us over centuries. We do not exist in isolation, and it is essential to our healthcare that we are all healing together, healing each other, and healing our world. We will heal the damage of borders and states, government and authority, capitalism and imperialism.

We recognise that the history of trans medicine is a history of colonial and fascist abuse. We see the history of eugenicist experimentation from Nazi concentration camps, to the colonial implentation of the West’s regime of the gender binary, to virginity tests for South Asian and other Women of Colour in the UK in the 1970s; from the sterilisation & birth control trials forced on the women of Puerto Rico, to the thousands of Black and brown people who have died on NHS psychiatric wards; from the denial of the reproductive rights of disabled people, to the denial of access to abortions to people in the North of Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, past and present. We see the continued manifestation of eugenicist medicine in the denial of our bodily autonomy as trans people today: from coercive surgeries on intersex infants, to forced sterilisation in parts of europe, policing of and misinformation regarding our sexual reproduction, to gatekeeping of surgeries and medicines.

Our fight for bodily autonomy cannot be separated from our fight for reproductive justice. The demand to do what we want with our bodies is necessarily a demand for free and accessible abortions, for the decriminalisation of sex work, and for universal self-determination. We fight for an end to borders, prisons and police. We recognise that we do not exist independently of our environment, and so our fight for self-determination and health is a fight for climate justice, too. We are not separate from our environment, health is unattainable while the water is poisoned and the land is scorched.

There will be no clinics, and no authorities. We will conduct our own research, and experiment with our own bodies. We will heal and grow together. We will accumulate knowledge and share it freely and accessibly. We demand nothing less than the total abolition of the clinic, of psychiatry, and of the medical-industrial complex. We demand an end to capitalist & colonialist “medicine”.

We demand hormones & blockers are made available over-the-counter and by free prescription upon request. We need free, universal access to safe hormones & blockers at any age, the opportunity to decide our own doses, and universally accessible information on the safety & efficacy of different regimens. We are already taking hormones in this way, so this demand is simply that the danger of doing so is effectively mitigated.

We demand that all therapies that can be are made available at drop-ins, with self-referral for any therapy or procedure for which drop-in is unsuitable.

We demand anonymous blood tests, both postal & at drop-in endocrinology clinics, where we can seek the advice of a consultant if we wish.

We demand the freedom to alter our bodies without justification. We demand an end to all surgical prerequisites - nobody should have to prove life experience,health or have to be taking hormones in order to exercise bodily autonomy. We demand that these surgeries can be highly customised to meet our individual & unique needs. We demand the right to multiple surgeries, including reversal of previous surgeries if desired, so that we do not have to fear regret. We demand the free & timely provision of genital surgeries, additive & reductive chest surgeries, hysterectomies and orchiectomies, tracheal & vocal surgeries, facial surgeries, lipoplasty, contouring & microdermabrasion, surgical hair removal & transplantation, and any other possible procedure to meet our needs as we express them.

We demand resources for hair removal anywhere on our bodies, and the option of local anesthetic during these procedures.
We demand voice coaching that does not coerce us to alter our voices in ways we do not express a need for, but respects our accents and our right to express ourselves however we desire.

We demand access to counselling & and any other therapies we choose.
We demand the revocation of medical licenses from all gender clinic doctors & nurses, past and present.

We demand the power to hold abusers of medical & administrative power accountable for historical & present injustices.

We demand medical training to enable us to safely carry out medical procedures & research for each other, for anyone of us who wants to learn. We will enhance our collective knowledge, so that the means to understand our bodies is universally accessible. We demand to improve the quality of medications we take and procedures we undergo, to reduce negative side-effects in the long term, and to highlight our own experience and understanding of their effects on our bodies.

We demand research centres & libraries of knowledge, autonomously & horizontally organised by and for trans people, in which research subjects are equal participants in deciding the experiments conducted & the manner in which those experiments are carried out. We demand full funding for any research or projects undertaken by these collectives.

We demand mandatory education, written & taught entirely by trans people, at all educational stages, from nursery to adulthood. Trans kids have a need to understand themselves, in the context of their own bodies, lives & experiences. We must repair the damage done by section 28, the legacy of which is still causing harm to today’s children.

We demand material reparations for historical abuses against trans people, and for all people hurt by eugenicist medical practices and policies.

We demand an end to birth certificates and to legal gender. Gender records should be anonymised, and only ever recorded as part of equalities monitoring. Neither government, nor any institution, has any justification for keeping a register of trans people. Birth certificates are not just a violence against trans people, they are a material to the state’s oppression of “undocumented” immigrants and asylum seekers.

We demand good quality, accessible & safe homes for all; and demand adquate resources to trans and marginalised people to establish communes & housing co-operatives to schemes and projects.

We demand that trans people are immediately freed from police, military & government contracts without repercussions. We reject the system of blackmail that corporations and governments engage in, whereby trans people who can work are “rewarded” with slightly less mistreatment in exchange for the exploitation of our labour. We will not allow pinkwashing of the violence of capitalism, imperialism and the state.

We demand amnesty, recourse to public funds and indefinite right to remain for all trans, lesbian, gay and bisexual immigrants & asylum seekers. No one is illegal.

We demand immediate release & pardon for all trans prisoners.

Edinburgh Action for Trans Health

MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 02/02/2022 18:55

DomesticatedZombie. They don't want much then do they... 🤔🤨

DomesticatedZombie · 02/02/2022 19:02

Completely reasonable people.

anothersmahedmug · 02/02/2022 19:04

Is that meant to be a pisstake domesticzombie? Or is laughing inappropriate?

DomesticatedZombie · 02/02/2022 19:05

I don't see laughing mentioned anywhere in that manifesto.

So ... you might be okay. But don't come running to me if they hateincident you.

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