Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What rights don't trans and nb people have?

146 replies

AlternativelyWired · 02/02/2022 16:50

Manchester councillor readies motion on improving trans rights across city www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/its-time-more-manchester-councillor-22950927

The article doesn't specify except to say the motion wants the council to state twaw.

OP posts:
AlternativelyWired · 03/02/2022 13:21

@MargaritaPie do you have a link to that complaint by Kellie-Jay please? I've not heard anything about that.

OP posts:
MorrisZapp · 03/02/2022 13:26

I think we have to tread carefully with this line of attack. In the good old days pre gender wars I had regular ding dongs with men online who wanted to know what rights women lacked. In law, we have all the rights we need. The issue is that law and lived reality are two different things, and you can't legislate for attitudes.

The law makes me any man's equal. But people uphold patriarchy.

Whatwouldscullydo · 03/02/2022 13:43

alternative

The complaint was not that a transwoman police officer was wearing make up.

It was that the dress code for the female officers was neutral make up lips and nails. Said transwoman police officer had heavy make up and green nails. Therfore not following the same dress code that the other police officers had to follow

Iguanothankyoudon · 03/02/2022 13:45

And trans ideology upholds the patriarchy. With women who refuse to submit losing their jobs or being investigated by the thought police.

drwitch · 03/02/2022 13:58

@MorrisZapp

I think we have to tread carefully with this line of attack. In the good old days pre gender wars I had regular ding dongs with men online who wanted to know what rights women lacked. In law, we have all the rights we need. The issue is that law and lived reality are two different things, and you can't legislate for attitudes.

The law makes me any man's equal. But people uphold patriarchy.

There are quite a few of us on this thread making similar points in different forms, perhaps not so well put as this though. This, I think, nicely disproves the radicalization hypothesis. The discussion is nuanced and constructive
Rheopecticfluid · 03/02/2022 14:27

An example off the top of my head look at the number of complaints the Girl Guides received after appointing a transwoman leader

I think you'll find the complaints were actually about the behaviour of said transwoman, demonstrated on social media. One that certainly raised safeguarding concerns, and as an aside, behaviour that certainly would not be accepted from a female leader.

DomesticatedZombie · 03/02/2022 14:54

@MorrisZapp

I think we have to tread carefully with this line of attack. In the good old days pre gender wars I had regular ding dongs with men online who wanted to know what rights women lacked. In law, we have all the rights we need. The issue is that law and lived reality are two different things, and you can't legislate for attitudes.

The law makes me any man's equal. But people uphold patriarchy.

This isn't 'attack', though, this is a response to people banging on about how trans people need more rights. Fighting for trans rights, etc.
Member589500 · 03/02/2022 15:12

It’s the end of borders, prisons and police for me so basically anarchy.
It’s a viewpoint. Maybe not well aligned with the safety and medical care demands though Grin
This can’t be real. It can’t be.

averylongtimeago · 03/02/2022 15:51

@MargaritaPie

IMO it isn't just about "what legal rights do transpeople have", it's also about the stigma and prejudice they may face.

An example off the top of my head look at the number of complaints the Girl Guides received after appointing a transwoman leader.

More recently, Kellie-Jay Keen made a complaint to the police regarding one of their voluntary transwoman constables for wearing make-up and nail polish. (The complaint wasn't upheld as discretion is permitted for voluntary officers as they may have other commitments and may be required to go on duty at short notice.)

I've seen "AGP" being associated with transwomen a few times on various platforms and I think it's a bit offensive.

I complained about Sully- direct to Girlguiding. Not that they are trans, but because of safeguarding concerns raised by their behaviour on social media.

I would say that of course trans people should have the same human rights as any other group of people.
Also that trans people should have the same responsibilities to others and to uphold the law just like everyone else.

MostIneptThatEverStepped · 03/02/2022 15:58

@DomesticatedZombie

edinburghath.tumblr.com/post/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto/

I was going to do selected highlights, but stuff it, have the lot, this is too good:

....We will fight anyone who stands in the way of universal liberation. This is war, and we will win.

TRANS HEALTH MANIFESTO

Trans health is bodily autonomy. We will express our needs, and they will be met. We will change our bodies however we want. We will have universally accessible and freely available hormones & blockers, surgical procedures, and any other relevant treatments and therapies. We will end the medical gatekeeping of our bodies. We will have full, historical accountability for the abuses perpetuated against us in the name of 'healthcare’. We will see reparations for these crimes, and the crimes committed against others in our names.

We are not too ill, too disabled, too anxious, too depressed, too psychotic, too Mad, too foreign, too young, too old, too fat, too thin, too poor, or too queer to make decisions about our bodies and our futures. We are all self-medicating. Our agency will be recognised. We each labour far harder for the health of ourselves and those around us than any doctor ever has, and we will continue build supportive communities on principles of mutual aid.

We deny the separation of bodies, minds, and selves - a violence against any part of us is a violence against all of us. We believe that the epidemic of chronic conditions in our communities is a consequence of the war of attrition waged against us over centuries. We do not exist in isolation, and it is essential to our healthcare that we are all healing together, healing each other, and healing our world. We will heal the damage of borders and states, government and authority, capitalism and imperialism.

We recognise that the history of trans medicine is a history of colonial and fascist abuse. We see the history of eugenicist experimentation from Nazi concentration camps, to the colonial implentation of the West’s regime of the gender binary, to virginity tests for South Asian and other Women of Colour in the UK in the 1970s; from the sterilisation & birth control trials forced on the women of Puerto Rico, to the thousands of Black and brown people who have died on NHS psychiatric wards; from the denial of the reproductive rights of disabled people, to the denial of access to abortions to people in the North of Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, past and present. We see the continued manifestation of eugenicist medicine in the denial of our bodily autonomy as trans people today: from coercive surgeries on intersex infants, to forced sterilisation in parts of europe, policing of and misinformation regarding our sexual reproduction, to gatekeeping of surgeries and medicines.

Our fight for bodily autonomy cannot be separated from our fight for reproductive justice. The demand to do what we want with our bodies is necessarily a demand for free and accessible abortions, for the decriminalisation of sex work, and for universal self-determination. We fight for an end to borders, prisons and police. We recognise that we do not exist independently of our environment, and so our fight for self-determination and health is a fight for climate justice, too. We are not separate from our environment, health is unattainable while the water is poisoned and the land is scorched.

There will be no clinics, and no authorities. We will conduct our own research, and experiment with our own bodies. We will heal and grow together. We will accumulate knowledge and share it freely and accessibly. We demand nothing less than the total abolition of the clinic, of psychiatry, and of the medical-industrial complex. We demand an end to capitalist & colonialist “medicine”.

We demand hormones & blockers are made available over-the-counter and by free prescription upon request. We need free, universal access to safe hormones & blockers at any age, the opportunity to decide our own doses, and universally accessible information on the safety & efficacy of different regimens. We are already taking hormones in this way, so this demand is simply that the danger of doing so is effectively mitigated.

We demand that all therapies that can be are made available at drop-ins, with self-referral for any therapy or procedure for which drop-in is unsuitable.

We demand anonymous blood tests, both postal & at drop-in endocrinology clinics, where we can seek the advice of a consultant if we wish.

We demand the freedom to alter our bodies without justification. We demand an end to all surgical prerequisites - nobody should have to prove life experience,health or have to be taking hormones in order to exercise bodily autonomy. We demand that these surgeries can be highly customised to meet our individual & unique needs. We demand the right to multiple surgeries, including reversal of previous surgeries if desired, so that we do not have to fear regret. We demand the free & timely provision of genital surgeries, additive & reductive chest surgeries, hysterectomies and orchiectomies, tracheal & vocal surgeries, facial surgeries, lipoplasty, contouring & microdermabrasion, surgical hair removal & transplantation, and any other possible procedure to meet our needs as we express them.

We demand resources for hair removal anywhere on our bodies, and the option of local anesthetic during these procedures.
We demand voice coaching that does not coerce us to alter our voices in ways we do not express a need for, but respects our accents and our right to express ourselves however we desire.

We demand access to counselling & and any other therapies we choose.
We demand the revocation of medical licenses from all gender clinic doctors & nurses, past and present.

We demand the power to hold abusers of medical & administrative power accountable for historical & present injustices.

We demand medical training to enable us to safely carry out medical procedures & research for each other, for anyone of us who wants to learn. We will enhance our collective knowledge, so that the means to understand our bodies is universally accessible. We demand to improve the quality of medications we take and procedures we undergo, to reduce negative side-effects in the long term, and to highlight our own experience and understanding of their effects on our bodies.

We demand research centres & libraries of knowledge, autonomously & horizontally organised by and for trans people, in which research subjects are equal participants in deciding the experiments conducted & the manner in which those experiments are carried out. We demand full funding for any research or projects undertaken by these collectives.

We demand mandatory education, written & taught entirely by trans people, at all educational stages, from nursery to adulthood. Trans kids have a need to understand themselves, in the context of their own bodies, lives & experiences. We must repair the damage done by section 28, the legacy of which is still causing harm to today’s children.

We demand material reparations for historical abuses against trans people, and for all people hurt by eugenicist medical practices and policies.

We demand an end to birth certificates and to legal gender. Gender records should be anonymised, and only ever recorded as part of equalities monitoring. Neither government, nor any institution, has any justification for keeping a register of trans people. Birth certificates are not just a violence against trans people, they are a material to the state’s oppression of “undocumented” immigrants and asylum seekers.

We demand good quality, accessible & safe homes for all; and demand adquate resources to trans and marginalised people to establish communes & housing co-operatives to schemes and projects.

We demand that trans people are immediately freed from police, military & government contracts without repercussions. We reject the system of blackmail that corporations and governments engage in, whereby trans people who can work are “rewarded” with slightly less mistreatment in exchange for the exploitation of our labour. We will not allow pinkwashing of the violence of capitalism, imperialism and the state.

We demand amnesty, recourse to public funds and indefinite right to remain for all trans, lesbian, gay and bisexual immigrants & asylum seekers. No one is illegal.

We demand immediate release & pardon for all trans prisoners.

Edinburgh Action for Trans Health

Yikes 😬

The moon on a stick, they missed that out.

TheEmperorsInvisibleClothes · 03/02/2022 16:13

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

ScrollingLeaves · 03/02/2022 16:15

“The motion comes at a time where hate crimes against trans and non-binary people in the UK are continuing to rise.“

It does not say what these hate crimes are. Does anyone know?

I think there is a difference between human rights which trans people should have as humans, and human women’s rights to certain things which are separate and which TW and non binary male should not have:

Prisons, changing rooms, lavatories; women’s sports;
prizes for the category, ‘Women’; girl guide leading; girls’ schools.

ScrollingLeaves · 03/02/2022 16:17

Yes, I forgot women’s refuges.

ScrollingLeaves · 03/02/2022 16:22

Does anyone take the Edinburgh Action for Trans Health seriously?

It come across as something a young adolescent might write.

Waitwhat23 · 03/02/2022 16:25

@MargaritaPie

IMO it isn't just about "what legal rights do transpeople have", it's also about the stigma and prejudice they may face.

An example off the top of my head look at the number of complaints the Girl Guides received after appointing a transwoman leader.

More recently, Kellie-Jay Keen made a complaint to the police regarding one of their voluntary transwoman constables for wearing make-up and nail polish. (The complaint wasn't upheld as discretion is permitted for voluntary officers as they may have other commitments and may be required to go on duty at short notice.)

I've seen "AGP" being associated with transwomen a few times on various platforms and I think it's a bit offensive.

I'm always amused at how Margarita can carefully curate events to very carefully miss out very pertinent points.
DomesticatedZombie · 03/02/2022 16:47

'I've seen "AGP" being associated with transwomen a few times on various platforms and I think it's a bit offensive.'

Oh, really? What is it?

MargaritaPie · 03/02/2022 16:48

[quote AlternativelyWired]@MargaritaPie do you have a link to that complaint by Kellie-Jay please? I've not heard anything about that. [/quote]
The complaint was made by Maya Forstater, not KJ, sorry my mistake.

Here is a link to the response the police gave to her complaint:

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1480131262094450694/photo/1

Jux · 03/02/2022 17:03

The Health Manifesto is an absolute delight isn't it? Every so often, when I need a little chuckle, I dig it out and reread it. Grin

AlternativelyWired · 03/02/2022 17:11

@MargaritaPie woman points out double standards by complaining and gets told to be quiet in case the nail polish wearing officers gets feelings hurt about sums it up.

OP posts:
Waitwhat23 · 03/02/2022 17:37

That ridiculous manifesto always puts me in mind of the demands by The Elucidated Brethren in 'Guards! Guards!'

An end to oppressive vegetable sellers!

MargaritaPie · 03/02/2022 18:37

[quote AlternativelyWired]@MargaritaPie woman points out double standards by complaining and gets told to be quiet in case the nail polish wearing officers gets feelings hurt about sums it up.
[/quote]
What double standards?

The constable in question is a volunteer, they are giving up their free time, and because of this the police openly state that some discretion is permitted.

If some people want to change the rules and make them stricter this could potentially mean less voluntary officers on our streets.

User1isnotavailable · 03/02/2022 19:51

Is a hate crime giving an opinion that doesn't fit with the narrative of the trans? Anything that disagrees is hateful to them.

Using sex as a descriptive because there are only male and female sex is hateful to them. I am female sex (fact) and identify as a rose bush because that is how I feel sometimes beautiful, sometimes prickly it doesn't stop me from having female dna and being a female (thoughts and ideas)

User1isnotavailable · 03/02/2022 19:53

@AlternativelyWired

"Trans health is bodily autonomy. We will express our needs, and they will be met. We will change our bodies however we want. We will have universally accessible and freely available hormones & blockers, surgical procedures, and any other relevant treatments and therapies. We will end the medical gatekeeping of our bodies. We will have full, historical accountability for the abuses perpetuated against us in the name of 'healthcare’. We will see reparations for these crimes, "

Hmmm. No one gets this, especially women who suffer great inequalities in health care. Crippling pain from endometriosis takes on average 8 years to get diagnosed. Menopause care, pregnancy care, notoriously doesn't involve much autonomy and women certainly don't demand hormones and wouldn't get them without the appropriate checks and balances. Sterilisation because you know you don't want children at all? Nope. HRT below the average age of menopause? Nope. Free and easy access to contraception and sexual health services globally? Nope. How about campaigning for those rights for everyone, not just trans people.

We demand that others pay for us to have these demands met.
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 04/02/2022 14:08

I think the Health Manifesto was written by Harry Josephine Giles.

Here is some more of Harry's writing, which presents an unusual viewpoint and references the Health Manifesto at the end.

harryjosiegiles.medium.com/wages-for-transition-dce2b246b9b7

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2022 14:46

"An unusual viewpoint" is beautifully understated!