What rights don't trans and nb people have?

[AlternativelyWired]

Manchester councillor readies motion on improving trans rights across city www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/its-time-more-manchester-councillor-22950927

The article doesn't specify except to say the motion wants the council to state twaw.

'The GP whom we persuade to refer us to the Gender Identity Clinic is paid to be educated by us, but we are not paid as teachers. For two years we sustain our wounded selves and each other as we wait to be seen, but we are not paid as care workers. When we finally meet the GIC psychiatrist, we must rehearse and perform in the theatre of their office a plausible enough history to be deemed worthy of treatment, but we are not paid as actors. When the psychiatrist produces a diagnosis which is exchanged for a prescription, we are not recognised as co-labourers in that production process. As we shape the raw material of our bodies we are not paid as surgeons, but our surgeons will be paid a considerable fee by the state for the effects they jealously guard.'

I mean, it's brilliant, thanks so much for sharing, viv, but oh my fuck is it long. I had to skim, because sadly nobody is paying me to read it although I guarantee that felt like labour - in both senses of the word.

'I was paid £400 by Dundee Contemporary Arts for writing and typesetting this text, for the 2019–20 Seized by the Left Hand exhibition, curated by Eoin Dara and Kim McAleese. From my fee I paid £100 to the illustrator to spread paid trans labour, paid £126 for three sessions of electrolysis for myself, and collectivised the remainder to Edinburgh Action for Trans Health’s Solidarity Fund, to which any trans person can apply.'

HJG is a person who writes and presents on the many struggles and injustices HJG has experienced whilst being transgender.

I'd be interested to know who's labour was providing support in the years HJG was studying and learning HJG's craft, culminating in a PhD.

Well done, Harry, you highlight the myriad ways that the trans community are the most marginalised in our society.

“ We demand the right to multiple surgeries, including reversal of previous surgeries if desired, so that we do not have to fear regret”

The mind boggles at how this would be possible, knowing the grim reality of these surgeries. Once something has been cut off/out, there is no way to stick it back on again, but the writer doesn’t seem aware of this basic fact (or is he trying to hide it from others?)

The mind boggles at how this would be possible, knowing the grim reality of these surgeries. Once something has been cut off/out, there is no way to stick it back on again, but the writer doesn’t seem aware of this basic fact (or is he trying to hide it from others?)

Reading their stuff, it appears that this person has a very tenuous grip on medicine and medical research/practice/safety.

Seems to think a quick google makes them an expert. They have to “educate” GP’s, psychiatrists, clincs, pharmacists, so why not educate surgeons on what they can and can’t do?

[quote vivariumvivariumsvivaria]I think the Health Manifesto was written by Harry Josephine Giles.

Here is some more of Harry's writing, which presents an unusual viewpoint and references the Health Manifesto at the end.

harryjosiegiles.medium.com/wages-for-transition-dce2b246b9b7[/quote]
Oh please please please will someone persuade HJG to do one of these for women?

I want to be paid to have periods, to have to lug around my breasts, for birthing another human etc.

I'd be a fucking millionaire!

No a billionaire or a zillionaire!

@DomesticatedZombie what the actual?!
@AlternativelyWired I was put on HRT at 27, but yes I agree. Easy access to treatment doesn’t exist because medical gatekeepers are there to protect us.

@OverlordTheUser but this is a thread about the UK, Manchester in particular
Plus personal attacks aren't allowed.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

HJG is a person who writes and presents on the many struggles and injustices HJG has experienced whilst being transgender.

I'd be interested to know who's labour was providing support in the years HJG was studying and learning HJG's craft, culminating in a PhD.

Well done, Harry, you highlight the myriad ways that the trans community are the most marginalised in our society.

One could get the impression that some people's labour is invisible and worthless. HJG seems to resent that medics are paid, and suggest that for Harry's desires to be fulfilled is Harry's 'work'. A very odd view. I get the sense of someone who will never be fulfilled, and makes impossible demands in the desperate hope someone at some point will say 'no'.

Unfortunately for Harry, we are living in a time of 'affirmation'. Nobody will say no. The parent figures have abdicated responsibility.

@DoubleYouOhEmAyEn what are your thoughts - do you want the outrageously abusive comment above reported (wouldn't blame you if you did) or do you want it to stand as an example of the kind of abuse women face for having opinions in this 'debate'?

[quote vivariumvivariumsvivaria]I think the Health Manifesto was written by Harry Josephine Giles.

Here is some more of Harry's writing, which presents an unusual viewpoint and references the Health Manifesto at the end.

harryjosiegiles.medium.com/wages-for-transition-dce2b246b9b7[/quote]
Giles really does think the world revolves around Giles and those like Giles. What a prick. 😂

@OverlordTheUser

The attached photo is from stonewall themselves. Which shows Trans is legal, but you must have a GRC to be recognised as a different gender. NB isn’t legally recognised as a gender, but isn’t illegal.

Curious to know whether stonewall have it wrong, in which case please contact them and educate them, or you are deliberately misleading us in order to squeeze in a bit of woman hating abuse - and what is “westboro” and why would it be a term of abuse”

And yes, I checked because this gaslighting of women into believing trans and NB are the most at risk of violence/murder/suicidal/marginalisation isn’t unusual. Yet when you dig into the stats they rarely back up what is being hurled at us as “facts”.

The UK is one of the safest places in the world to be trans or non binary, despite the oft repeated trope of 'most marginalised and oppressed' - thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable/

There are undoubtedly places in the world where this is not the case, but given the UK context of this thread (and website generally), it's not really relevant to this particular discussion. It's also a bit pointless to pretend that the situation in other countries can be extrapolated as if applies here too - the awful statistic of murdered Brazilian transwomen sex workers is applied as a statistic to 'prove' that transpeople in the UK are at similar risk. They're not.

@MargaritaPie

IMO it isn't just about "what legal rights do transpeople have", it's also about the stigma and prejudice they may face.

An example off the top of my head look at the number of complaints the Girl Guides received after appointing a transwoman leader.

More recently, Kellie-Jay Keen made a complaint to the police regarding one of their voluntary transwoman constables for wearing make-up and nail polish. (The complaint wasn't upheld as discretion is permitted for voluntary officers as they may have other commitments and may be required to go on duty at short notice.)

I've seen "AGP" being associated with transwomen a few times on various platforms and I think it's a bit offensive.

This was a remarkable piece of twisting by Pie. As usual.

I encourage all readers who don’t know the instances mentioned to read further on this.

The GG leader wasn’t complained about because ‘Trans’ but because of the safeguarding issues they presented, and didn’t seem to understand yet were responsible for ensuring were being followed to protect… you know, our daughters.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4409035-A-trans-Identified-BDSM-fan-gun-nut-is-now-a-senior-leader-at-Girlguiding

The police volunteer was not a complaint about ‘trans’ either.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4448586-why-am-i-not-surprised

It was about the double standards of dress code. And please fuck off with the ‘volunteer’ status. Their is leniency and there is taking the piss. Wearing heavy makeup and deeply coloured mail polish even with a volunteer should not be considered ok. That is not bending the dress code ‘a little’ and it is ridiculous to argue that it was ‘just a little’.

Plus, it is inescapable that this was then a photo published for PR. So… not just a little bending of the rules to accommodate anyone. But a large departure from dress code.

And lastly, please do go look up ‘autogynaphilia’ on Google and make up your own mind. margarita has always played this aspect down for reasons of their own. It is not something generally allowed discussed here… for some reason some people complain and get the posts and threads deleted.

So readers. I do encourage you to look further into pie’s post. What may seem entirely reasonable at first reading has huge back stories.

But some posters have also got their own agenda which is to shame women defending safeguarding standards and their own rights against conflicts with that of a group of males. They are very keen to make out women are indulging in moral panic and are hateful.

@DisappearingGirl

I always think it would be much easier to help trans people from a position of reality. The denial of sex and accusations of transphobia aimed at everyone who will not go along with the idea that twaw just gets people’s backs up and takes the focus away from things that could be done that would actually make a difference to trans people’s lives

Yes I absolutely agree with this too. I was just saying to my DP last night that if trans sports people like Lia Thomas were to say, okay I'm trans and I'd like to be referred to by this name and pronoun and wear feminine clothing, but I'm happy to be in the male team as my sex is male, I think people would really respect that and get on board with it.

But then he wouldn't win

I came across joshua rozenbergs blog on hate crime last night.

For reference www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime

So a hate crime is one driven by hate towards race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, and trans identity.

Not sex. So if you commit a hate crime against a woman because she’s female, that doesn’t qualify for the increased sentence of a hate crime.

So in that circumstance it could be said trans people have more rights than women?

@Nomoreusernames1244

I have just looked at your link. You are right. It is unbelievable. How on earth could a law like that have been passed?

Unless they think that saying, for example, “You bitch you deserve to be killed” to a woman, that would be construed by the CPS as a hate crime against a woman as a ‘Gender Identity’?

Are there any lawyers here who can comment?

@JustcameoutGC

We demand all pears are cutted up

....but we all want our pears cutted up in a different way, and some days we might want them cutted in circles and some days we might want them cutted in triangles but we're not going to tell you how we want them cutted up and even if we do tell you we might have changed our mind in between the cutting and the putting on the table AND YOU WILL HAVE COMMITTED LITERAL VIOLENCE BY GETTING IT WRONG!

@MagpiePi 🤣🤣🤣🤣 it's so toddler-esque.