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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman on ward - complains about male patient. Is discharged.

409 replies

KittenKong · 27/01/2022 11:01

Going on twitter. She was in a Women’s ward (signage says ‘women’ but later this was disputed by staff).

Another patient on ward ‘Annie’ (not real name). Visitor comes in ‘Hello Fred’.

Woman patient complains that there is a male in the ward. Staff come on handed and tell her that there isn’t (and that there were no single sec wards) - and treated as if she is a troublemaker.

Woman mysteriously discharged PDQ, although not quite feeling well enough in herself.

twitter.com/gillyism/status/1486596070096478209?s=21

Baroness is on the case.

OP posts:
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9
Lovelyricepudding · 03/02/2022 22:19

abitofadvice1234 I take it you mean you are indigenous to northern America? 'Indigenous' makes little sense in the european context where the majority of people are indigenous.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/02/2022 22:22

This thread is another record of trans activists disrupting basic feminism:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4170253-Anti-FGM-campaigner-Hibo-Wardere-comes-under-attack?pg=1

NitroNine · 03/02/2022 22:29

I’ve ended up in paeds as an adult when unconscious/unable to communicate* but there’s never been any doubt or confusion over my sex. Amazing, isn’t it?

As someone (specifically, a survivor of multiple sexual assaults) who actually was given an internal exam without her consent while unconscious; I really do find the constant harping on imaginary “genital examinations” in poor taste, to put it mildly. Honestly it’s like when small boys are fascinated with their penises: there simply are not enough ways to express that the rest of the world absolutely does not wish to view the contents of your underwear; & constantly turning the discussion to it is both selfish & boring.

abitofadvice1234 · 03/02/2022 22:31

Yes I am Indigenous to North America. The word does apply in the European context but that’s a whole other thing. I am also what would be considered by most here a “trans woman.”

Separately, @PurgatoryOfPotholes , yes there’s an issue there and it’s annoying. But to join in with the the “gender critical” movement which directs hate and aggression towards trans women and trans people generally is overkill for what is infighting within a movement.

Waitwhat23 · 03/02/2022 22:35

@abitofadvice1234 and I'm posting from Scotland. A country where -

  • elected officials voted against traumatised rape survivors being able to request a female examiner. Not insist or demand but simply request. This was apparently unacceptable.
  • where convicted sex offenders who self id as transgender are routinely placed in the female prison estate. Unlike the rest of the UK, a GRC isn't even seen as a consideration. A representative of a Scottish Trans organisation has openly admitted to this being an experiment in order to push the same kind of 'inclusion' in other public spaces. An experiment. On vulnerable women.
  • where women have been investigated by the Police for ribboning, stickering, chalking and having the 'wrong' opinion. Where credible rape threats are made against female politicians and are essentially condoned by our First Minister.
  • and in terms of 'semantics', a recent radio campaign in Scotland to encourage the woeful take up the cervical screening programme didn't use the word woman once. It used the term 'those with a cervix'. But fuck those women who don't know what a cervix is (50% in recent surveys), or women who have basic knowledge of English, or various other groups who know the word woman but not the word cervix, right?

I would consider these immensely feminist concerns. These issues hurt women.

EeeICouldRipATissue · 03/02/2022 22:35

but there’s never been any doubt or confusion over my sex. Amazing, isn’t it?
Well lucky you for passing the looking enough like a woman test.
Pity this woman wasn't as lucky to be as womanly looking as you.

Migrainesbythedozen · 03/02/2022 22:38

@EeeICouldRipATissue

but there’s never been any doubt or confusion over my sex. Amazing, isn’t it? Well lucky you for passing the looking enough like a woman test. Pity this woman wasn't as lucky to be as womanly looking as you.
Pity that if it weren't for backstabbers to women like you suggesting men should be in women's safe spaces, women wouldn't be on High Alert for men, so this wouldn't have happened. An own goal by you and your ilk. Congratulations. I hope you feel proud of yourself.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/02/2022 22:39

@EeeICouldRipATissue

but there’s never been any doubt or confusion over my sex. Amazing, isn’t it? Well lucky you for passing the looking enough like a woman test. Pity this woman wasn't as lucky to be as womanly looking as you.
Apparently she is exactly as womanly as Nitro, as she was placed on a woman's ward by hospital staff.
Rheopecticfluid · 03/02/2022 22:40

But to join in with the the “gender critical” movement which directs hate and aggression towards trans women and trans people

No it doesn't. Unless you've changed the meaning of 'hate' and 'overkill'. Which is always quite possible.

And there's no within about it.
There's women.
And then there's some males, who call themselves women.
We're not a group. Transwomen are not a subset of women We are not the same.

Migrainesbythedozen · 03/02/2022 22:41

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

abitofadvice1234

Once upon a time, I didn't care about this very much. I assumed that so long as I carried on treating trans people as people (as I did friends who were T), and advocated against them being discriminated at work and so on, everything would be okay.

But then, again, and again, and again I saw discussions of simple feminist issues deliberately derailed with "but what about transwomen?" And I was told feminism was bullshit unless it centred transwomen. So I've had enough thanks.

Ttans activists have repeatedly demanded feminist attention when we were discussing things that had nothing to do with them. Now they're getting the attention they demanded and this is supposed to be us being anti-feminist? Nah.

Observe this sticker. It says "THREE WOMEN KILLED BY MEN EACH WEEK". Someone has tried to obscure this information with trans flag stickers. That's trans activism in a nutshell.

This is all the evidence needed that Meninists/TRAs are all about ideology over common sense.

To hate women so much, as they do, that we cannot even talk about DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, shows the level of dogmatic and ideological brainwashing that the TRAs have engaged in.

I wonder what the simpering apologists for the Meninists on here think about that? That we can't even talk about a normal issue like Domestic Violence?

I bet they are gleeful in their striking a blow for men.

Hasselhoffsheadband · 03/02/2022 22:42

@EeeICouldRipATissue

but there’s never been any doubt or confusion over my sex. Amazing, isn’t it? Well lucky you for passing the looking enough like a woman test. Pity this woman wasn't as lucky to be as womanly looking as you.
Well the HCPs knew the person in question was a woman, even if another woman in the ward didn't know. Amazing huh? These trained medical professionals and their amazing abilities to correctly sex people!
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/02/2022 22:42

yes there’s an issue there and it’s annoying. But to join in with the the “gender critical” movement which directs hate and aggression towards trans women and trans people generally is overkill for what is infighting within a movement.

You don't have their authority to assess things for me, or to tell me what is a proportional reaction, petal. It is not "infighting", it is unrestrained aggression towards women discussing their own needs and I'm not making excuses for it any more.

Innocenta · 03/02/2022 22:43

@FFSFFSFFS I phrased it quite badly. I didn't mean my sympathy for any woman is limited when it comes to her needs for a specific type of accommodation in hospital. I see how it's possible for my post to read that way, and I apologise.

I was trying to convey my wider discomfort with some aspects of the GC movement (although I think others are valid and fair). For example, I do think there is a lot of transphobia under GC colours, and that really does trouble and upset me very much. I truly believe that it should be possible to support women's rights, even to be a radical feminist, and also to support trans people. But I sincerely didn't intend to sound as though I was unconcerned over any woman in hospital. I am often admitted myself and I know that anyone in that situation is very vulnerable.

barleybadminton · 03/02/2022 22:44

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Do you think transmen are safe on a male ward. Yes or no.
What a strange picture to use. Perhaps we should segregate hospital wards by size instead of gender.

I think it probably depends on a range of factor, a lot of trans men pass quite well so would go unnoticed, and many may well the dignity of being on a ward inline with their gender to being on a female ward where many women might object to their presence.

I think a trans man who passes reasonably well would certainly be safer than a trans woman who passes reasonably well, but I think a common sense approach would be to let him decide which ward he wants to be on assuming he is able to.

EeeICouldRipATissue · 03/02/2022 22:44

Well the HCPs knew the person in question was a woman, even if another woman in the ward didn't know
Didn't stop the person in question being harassed/intimidated and told she didn't belong there as she was a man, though did it?

Lovelyricepudding · 03/02/2022 22:45

Yes I am Indigenous to North America. The word does apply in the European context but that’s a whole other thing.

The word does apply in the European context. I am indigenous as are the majority of people in Britain. The problem is that it's use is normally associated with nationalistic far right parties. But that not mean there are not 'native' populations.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/02/2022 22:52

@EeeICouldRipATissue

Well the HCPs knew the person in question was a woman, even if another woman in the ward didn't know Didn't stop the person in question being harassed/intimidated and told she didn't belong there as she was a man, though did it?
Well, that's the end consequence of aggressive behaviour from activists telling women that transwomen will go where they like, and NHS policies that direct nurses to lie to patients.
DialSquare · 03/02/2022 22:56

Hark at EeeI pretending to give a shit about women when it suits.
You've been asked multiple times pn here over the years about your lack of compassion for all the women who will be excluded from their own single sex spaces if we allow Males into them and not a dicky bird from you.

abitofadvice1234 · 03/02/2022 22:58

@Lovelyricepudding The colloquial term and the classification of “indigenous” doesn’t just mean “been there for a very long time.” For example there’s the Congo (forgetting if this is DRC, or the country itself.) You could say that most people living in the nation state of “the congo” are indigenous because they’ve been there for a long time. However, when describing the indigenous people of the congo it doesn’t refer to all people genetically there for a long time.

An example of an indigenous group within the Congo would be the Aka people. Their traditions and practices are indigenous because they are highly tied with the land around them, and as such cannot be separated from the land around them. They live in relation with the world around them. That’s usually what gets called “indigenous”.

Completely separate from the matter at hand but I thought i’d share.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/02/2022 23:09

I thought I'd share what Munroe Bergdorf thought of women mentioning reproductive rights on a women's march. Since Munroe wrote this, women in Texas have lost access to abortion, btw.

Munroe Bergdorf: 'Women Are Getting Feminism Wrong'Model and activist Munroe Bergdorf says feminism needs to include everyone – and not leave transgender women like herself behind

Feminism: the advocacy of women’s rights based on the equality of the sexes. A simple enough concept, right? Wrong! This is 2018 and if the past two years have taught us anything, it’s that nothing is simple any more – especially when it comes to matters of equality and identity.

As a society, our understanding of the language we use to describe aspects of gender, sex and sexuality is evolving. We’re beginning to understand that identity isn’t always black and white, it’s more like a sliding scale in which all can self-identify. What makes a woman ‘a woman’ has no definitive answer, nor does it need one.

A woman is more than a vagina, than her ability to bear children, the gender she was assigned at birth, a socio-economic class, marital status or sexual history – yet every one of these points has been used to define and control a woman’s place in society. This is why feminism must serve as an inclusive tool of liberation for all female identities and experiences, not just some.Thisis where so many women are still getting it wrong.

An example – January saw the second annual Women’s March in major cities in the US and UK. Rightfully charged up in the wake of the #MeToo and #TimesUp movements, hundreds of thousands of women took to the streets to show a united front against abuse and harassment. But in among the banners, a well-intentioned yet misguided symbol of women’s equality was worn by protestors – the pink pussy hat.

It might seem like a fun, inoffensive and light-hearted accessory, designed to unite women, but it feeds into a narrative that continues to push us apart. Last month, prior to the march I tweeted a reminder to those participating that it was an event for all women. I said, for the day to be truly progressive, it should focus on elevating the voices and experiences of those who are most often silenced and ignored in society. I felt it seemed reductive to summarise women as walking vaginas – isn’t that a similar approach to that of misogynists?

Almost immediately, I was shut down with a tidal wave of rebuttal, largely from cisgender women who seemed to believe that it was my desire to ‘co-opt the female experience’. Some said transgender issues are a ‘special case’ that not ‘all women’ should be expected to relate to. I stressed that you don’t need to be able to relate to somebody to exercise a sense of empathy. Injustice is injustice and trans women have a place under the umbrella of ‘all women’.Ultimately, this demonstrated to me a lack of interest about what we as trans people go through emotionally – it seems that that’s not quite as exciting as what we may choose to do with our bodies in a medical sense. These women do not see me as a ‘real woman’. Therefore they do not believe I had the right to be demanding space within a day that should be used to bring attention to issues that I too face at the hands of the patriarchy.

Trans women can’t continue to be an afterthought, especially when statistically we are the most at risk when it comes to issues of mental health, sexual assault, unemployment and homelessness. Our experiences must be approached with the same urgency in which we address the issues affecting cisgender women.

In the past, my relationships with cisgender women have been a valuable source of strength. There is great power in having allies and making use of social privilege to empower those who don’t have the same level of access. Lacking from so many conversations around feminism and equality is the acknowledgement of privilege and a strategy on how to use it to uplift women who are most at risk. If we’re going to have conversations about rape and sexual assault, we also need to talk about sex workers’ rights. We need to talk about the fact that the average life expectancy of a transgender woman of colour is just 35, largely because they’re statistically more likely to end up in sex work to survive.

As a trans woman, I find it so distressing to see the media host conversations about abuse, yet consistently fail to focus on such issues. In doing so they’re perpetuating the idea that safety and dignity is only for some women. I long to see more cisgender women in positions of influence standing up for trans women, making people aware of issues that may not affect all of us, but that we should all care about deeply.

In the same vein, we need to see more women who identify as straight standing up for lesbians. More Christian women standing with Muslim women. More able- bodied women standing with disabled women. For feminism to be an empowering sisterhood that all women bene t from, we must stop prioritising the experiences of only certain kinds of women and stand up for women who are different to ourselves.

We must learn to see all women’s experiences as worthy of being listened to within feminist discourse. Because the fact is not all women possess a functioning reproductive system, not all women have a vagina, not all women’s vaginas are pink. So, when ‘pink pussies’ are used as imagery intended to unify all women, what they are actually doing is excluding a large amount of women from feeling like they have a voice within feminism.

graziadaily.co.uk/life/opinion/munroe-bergdorf-women-getting-feminism-wrong/

Lots of stuff to unpack there. Munroe, vulvas and vaginas are different things, darling.

Waitwhat23 · 03/02/2022 23:12

[quote Innocenta]@FFSFFSFFS I phrased it quite badly. I didn't mean my sympathy for any woman is limited when it comes to her needs for a specific type of accommodation in hospital. I see how it's possible for my post to read that way, and I apologise.

I was trying to convey my wider discomfort with some aspects of the GC movement (although I think others are valid and fair). For example, I do think there is a lot of transphobia under GC colours, and that really does trouble and upset me very much. I truly believe that it should be possible to support women's rights, even to be a radical feminist, and also to support trans people. But I sincerely didn't intend to sound as though I was unconcerned over any woman in hospital. I am often admitted myself and I know that anyone in that situation is very vulnerable. [/quote]
Are you aware that 'The Telegraph has previouslyrevealed that NHS Trusts across the countryhave issued guidance that says patients should be admitted based on the gender they identify with and therefore can choose which ward, lavatory and shower facilities they use. Some trusts have labelled those patients who express discomfort as transphobic, compared them to racists in official guidelines and ordered staff to report them to police for hate crimes.' ? (my bolds)

Quoted from this article - <a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20211016221759/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/10/16/nhs-hospitals-will-given-guidance-keeping-single-sex-wards-equalities/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20211016221759/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/10/16/nhs-hospitals-will-given-guidance-keeping-single-sex-wards-equalities/

Women aren't allowed to have needs, according to current official guidance by the NHS (though thankfully that is under review). That's our point. That's not anti trans. That's pro woman.

Innocenta · 03/02/2022 23:15

@Waitwhat23 I'm familiar with the topic.

EeeICouldRipATissue · 03/02/2022 23:16

might seem like a fun, inoffensive and light-hearted accessory, designed to unite women, but it feeds into a narrative that continues to push us apart. Last month, prior to the march I tweeted a reminder to those participating that it was an event for all women. I said, for the day to be truly progressive, it should focus on elevating the voices and experiences of those who are most often silenced and ignored in society. I felt it seemed reductive to summarise women as walking vaginas – isn’t that a similar approach to that of misogynists?
I think that's a fair enough point actually

Innocenta · 03/02/2022 23:20

@EeeICouldRipATissue But it was a direct reference to the offensive remarks of TFG, wasn't it? So reclamation by women.

Goatsaregreat · 03/02/2022 23:20

It's not surprising that so many women are frightened. Numerous NHS trusts have written special policies about allowing male born sex offenders on women's wards. They've discussed it and see it as a good thing. Personally I'd sack any medical professional involved, but as we know, there are a lot of undesirable organisations with influence over this:

www.womenarehuman.com/nhs-guidance-allows-male-patients-including-sex-offenders-in-female-only-wards/

.