Woman on ward - complains about male patient. Is discharged.

[KittenKong]

Going on twitter. She was in a Women’s ward (signage says ‘women’ but later this was disputed by staff).

Another patient on ward ‘Annie’ (not real name). Visitor comes in ‘Hello Fred’.

Woman patient complains that there is a male in the ward. Staff come on handed and tell her that there isn’t (and that there were no single sec wards) - and treated as if she is a troublemaker.

Woman mysteriously discharged PDQ, although not quite feeling well enough in herself.

twitter.com/gillyism/status/1486596070096478209?s=21

Baroness is on the case.

For the lurkers on the fence, see this for what it is. Hate. Not feminism.

Not hate. I don't hate transpeople. But absolutely a concern for women and children's safeguards. You can frame that as hate if you want. But that says more about people like you, determined to smash up women's safeguards for nefarious reasons, than it does about me.

#weseeyou

That very much depends on their condition. But also, if a fully transitioned trans women thought she might be placed on a ward full of men if she discloses she is trans then she may well risk it. Another reason why such a policy would be dangerous and impractical.

If a transwoman would be at risk on a male ward, why should we place transmen on a male ward?

What the tweeter was doing was gatekeeping womanhood, and attempting (in error) to keep out a cis woman and calling a cis woman a “man” because of perceived masculine traits. Voice and looks, based on the gender critical ideology of “always being able to tell.” A non traditionally presenting woman getting scaremongered over and demonized for her appearance while she was laid up in hospital
This

For the lurkers on the fence, see this for what it is. Hate. Not feminism
Exactly, because how can it be feminism when it's only some women that people give a shit about?
All the others, some are like nah, not so much and create fear and panic around and treat them differently.

@EeeICouldRipATissue

purgatory yes, but you seem to have missed where I said no medical need. If you have a severe disability, you clearly have need? If it's just to inspect whether a woman is woman that's not the same.

So these unconscious people in hospital are there, why?

Gait, pelvis proportion, hands, smell are all clear without undressing someone. Sex needs to be clearly established before any treatment in order to be safe. For a woman who seems between 12 and 55 they will also want to check for pregnancy. If unconscious they may need to catheterise. If conscious and lying about their sex then they are putting themselves at risk.

If you are a foreign resident but unable to pay then the NHS can, and often does, 'kick you out' once you are clinically safe enough to fly home. You will not be given elective surgery if they have established your status. Not all hospitals have staff to check this but more and more London hospitals do.

There is some major reaching going on in this thread! In circumstances where someone was going to be placed in a single sex ward, there will have been ample opportunity for the hospital staff to ascertain the patient's sex.

All this 'what about if they were foreign, and autistic, and had mental health issues, and were unconscious, and had had a stroke, and were Caster Semenya, and had had full SRS' is just an attempt to derail from the question.

, But absolutely a concern for women and children's safeguards*
Not concerned about all women's safety though, are you?
What about the woman in hospital who was harassed when she had every right to be there?
Who some people are saying it's OK to inspect her bits to check she's a woman?
What about women who don't '' look'' woman enough?
#WeSeeYouToo

I'm not sure why there would be discussions about sex and gender on the feminist chat board. It was created purely at the behest of those who wanted to not talk about sex and gender issues. Sex and Gender issues are naturally the main talking points on a....sex and gender board but to say that's all that's talked about is just nonsense, frankly. Even a quick look at the list of threads or a look through any thread will see a wide range of topics discussed.

Cis is considered by many posters on here to be a slur (and posts using it can be deleted if considered to be used maliciously). It's a made up nonsense word which is being imposed on women against their will.

You've hit a few bingo points in your post BTW. Cis, moral panic, gatekeeping womanhood and feministing 'wrong'. It's drearily predictable.

Out of interest, what are your thoughts on 'the erasure of women’s sex based rights'? Surely that comes under sex based oppression?

@abitofadvice1234

What this incident proves is that the Gender Critical movement is an obsessed and damaging moral panic that has nothing to do with women’s rights or feminism, and everything to do with a disgust response.

All I see on this board (and the feminism chat one) is obsession about trans people. Threads and threads of posters going in about the erasure of women’s sex based rights being erased. But never any discussion of sex based oppression. Pink taxes, period equity, the world designed to be default male, etc… All highly relevant topics but never brought up on the gender discussions board. Only obsession about trans people.

What the tweeter was doing was gatekeeping womanhood, and attempting (in error) to keep out a cis woman and calling a cis woman a “man” because of perceived masculine traits. Voice and looks, based on the gender critical ideology of “always being able to tell.” A non traditionally presenting woman getting scaremongered over and demonized for her appearance while she was laid up in hospital.

For the lurkers on the fence, see this for what it is. Hate. Not feminism.

Oh dear, if you hadn't noticed, we are not allowed to talk about things like 'pink taxes' when talking about feminism because it doesn't include transwomen and if your feminism doesn't include transwomen then 'it's not feminism'.

Munroe Bergdorf decreed it. Munroe said that centering reproductive systems in things like women's marches is 'reductive and exclusionary'.

Also, you're not allowed to use 'cis' on this board.

@EeeICouldRipATissue

purgatory yes, but you seem to have missed where I said no medical need. If you have a severe disability, you clearly have need? If it's just to inspect whether a woman is woman that's not the same.

What medical need does a healthy blind person have?

Exactly, because how can it be feminism when it's only some women that people give a shit about?

I care about women being raped in prisons by convicted sex offenders who self id as transgender. Those who espouse gender ideology don't seem to give a shiny shit about those vulnerable women.

@EeeICouldRipATissue

And any medical professional would easily spot those who gave had surgery (as would women) This is going down a dodgy road - you seem to be saying it's OK that it's fine for hospitals to undress /and or look at a woman's genitals when there's no medical need to and they're too out of it to notice or object. To make sure they really are a woman. Maybe people are OK with that, I don't see how they can be though!

There often is a medical reason for knowing the sex of a patient. What about if a blood transfusion is required? Mistakes could be deadly.

@EeeICouldRipATissue

, But absolutely a concern for women and children's safeguards* Not concerned about all women's safety though, are you? What about the woman in hospital who was harassed when she had every right to be there? Who some people are saying it's OK to inspect her bits to check she's a woman? What about women who don't '' look'' woman enough? #WeSeeYouToo

'If I keep repeating these over and over hopefully people won't notice how shit my argument actually is'.

There is some major reaching going on in this thread! In circumstances where someone was going to be placed in a single sex ward, there will have been ample opportunity for the hospital staff to ascertain the patient's sex.

I think there may be some confusion between the routine measures and checks used by trained medical staff to treat an unconscious, unresponsive patient, and what a layperson would do with a paralytic flatmate after a night out.

Oh dear, if you hadn't noticed, we are not allowed to talk about things like 'pink taxes' when talking about feminism because it doesn't include transwomen and if your feminism doesn't include transwomen then 'it's not feminism'.

Can't talk about domestic violence either. Still confused about that one. I thought they thought transwomen were women, and so included in stas about women?

We're rapidly approaching a society where the minority voice is the only one that can be heard.

And basically everyone else has to tolerate it, or be called a bigot.

@BoodleBug51

We're rapidly approaching a society where the minority voice is the only one that can be heard.

And basically everyone else has to tolerate it, or be called a bigot.

Ironically there is a word for that: bigotry

@barleybadminton Thank you for your reply!

I appreciate reading your thoughts. Is it possible for you to share a bit more about your friend's experience in a safely anonymised way? I understand if not, of course. That sounds unusual, but I can see why it would make this issue feel urgent to you.

From my perspective - I agree with you that it's unlikely we will see strictly XX wards return. I realise that's very much not what GC posters want, and I (to some extent) have sympathy with the underlying concerns. I definitely think there ought to be substantially more effort on both sides to actually have a civil conversation and not to slide into painful accusations. I know that's controversial to say on here, of course.

But I also acknowledge that self id is problematic. I don't think there is an easy answer, not at all, but it can't be right to punish patients who are distressed (even if mistaken).

I myself would not have any problem with sharing a ward with a trans woman. But I know a lot of women don't feel the same, and I think single sex bays (at least) should be there for people who need them.

Would trans and enby patients feel othered if offered side rooms? I always like to be in a side room as my wife stays with me in hospital, and we appreciate the privacy and quiet.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

That very much depends on their condition. But also, if a fully transitioned trans women thought she might be placed on a ward full of men if she discloses she is trans then she may well risk it. Another reason why such a policy would be dangerous and impractical.

If a transwoman would be at risk on a male ward, why should we place transmen on a male ward?

Well it's not just about risk but dignity as well. And I expect many men would object to a fully transitioned trans woman on the men's ward, just as many women would be likely to object to a fully transitioned trans man on a female ward.

But even if you believe trans women represent the same threat as men (which I don't but this thread isn't the place for that discussion), there is a clear risk differential between a trans women on a ward full of men and a single trans women on a ward full of women. The vast majority of women who go into hospital will never encounter a trans woman, a trans woman in these circumstances would be surrounded by men all the time - and some people have to spend a lot of time in hospital.

I mean realistically, assuming you are a woman, would you rather be on a ward full of women including one transitioned trans woman, or the only woman on a ward full of men? I think it's pretty clear which is the safer option.

@Innocenta just wondering why your sympathy to women who want single sex wards is limited and yet you are so concerned about how transwomwm and men who identify as non binary may feel othered. (And yes I’ve said transwomem and men as it really doesn’t seem that trans men or women who ifentify as non binary really are ever a consideration in this)

@Waitwhat23

To your question, I see the whole gender critical movement as a distraction that hurts “natal” women (since I can’t use the other word)

I’ll admit i’m posting from America. I’m Indigenous. I dont care all that much about the institutional language changes. I think the whole “people with [insert anatomical thing]” language is a bit ridiculous sometimes but just boils down to semantics.

What i’m focused on is MMIW, and the exploitation of all indigenous people, especially women though, assigned that at birth or otherwise. I worry about surprise govt. hysterectomies (only stopped in the 70s). Not small semantic changes in institutional language.

Do you think transmen are safe on a male ward. Yes or no.

@abitofadvice1234. - the gender critical movement?? You mean the understanding of basic reality of biological sex that has existed throughout human history! You mean that new fandangled concept?

I appreciate reading your thoughts. Is it possible for you to share a bit more about your friend's experience in a safely anonymised way? I understand if not, of course. That sounds unusual, but I can see why it would make this issue feel urgent to you.

I can't remember the exact name of the condition but it was kind of a form of dementia caused by a uti. She could speak, well mumble, but she couldn't articulate who she was including her name. She was in critical care for a few hours then transferred onto a general ward.

But also thinking about it my gran was the same, she had a stroke and was unable to speak but they didn't keep her in critical care, in fact after a few days on the ward they discharged her (with a support package) and she still couldn't speak.

Would trans and enby patients feel othered if offered side rooms? I always like to be in a side room as my wife stays with me in hospital, and we appreciate the privacy and quiet.

I think most people would rather have a side room, so I doubt many trans people would object and in fact I've heard of it happening. I think the only danger there (and it's similar to suggestions trans women could be fast tracked through the refuge system into self contained accommodation) is that people might resent what was perceived as special or privileged treatment - which may cause hostility towards trans women from people who didn't mind sharing a ward with them but are pissed off that they get their own room when they're stuck on a noisy ward.

abitofadvice1234

Once upon a time, I didn't care about this very much. I assumed that so long as I carried on treating trans people as people (as I did friends who were T), and advocated against them being discriminated at work and so on, everything would be okay.

But then, again, and again, and again I saw discussions of simple feminist issues deliberately derailed with "but what about transwomen?" And I was told feminism was bullshit unless it centred transwomen. So I've had enough thanks.

Ttans activists have repeatedly demanded feminist attention when we were discussing things that had nothing to do with them. Now they're getting the attention they demanded and this is supposed to be us being anti-feminist? Nah.

Observe this sticker. It says "THREE WOMEN KILLED BY MEN EACH WEEK". Someone has tried to obscure this information with trans flag stickers. That's trans activism in a nutshell.