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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman on ward - complains about male patient. Is discharged.

409 replies

KittenKong · 27/01/2022 11:01

Going on twitter. She was in a Women’s ward (signage says ‘women’ but later this was disputed by staff).

Another patient on ward ‘Annie’ (not real name). Visitor comes in ‘Hello Fred’.

Woman patient complains that there is a male in the ward. Staff come on handed and tell her that there isn’t (and that there were no single sec wards) - and treated as if she is a troublemaker.

Woman mysteriously discharged PDQ, although not quite feeling well enough in herself.

twitter.com/gillyism/status/1486596070096478209?s=21

Baroness is on the case.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
barleybadminton · 03/02/2022 20:55

If someone is that badly ill or injured that their sex cannot be ascertained, they are in a coma and unable to communicate, they probably are not going to be in a single sex ward anyway are they? They will be in a critical care unit.

Not necessarily if they are recovering from a stroke or something. Or just unconscious after emergency surgery. Or autistic or have a mental health condition. There's all kind of reasons people might not be communicative. And even if they can communicate what difference does it make, I thought people objected to self ID so why should medical staff believe them when they tell them their sex?

If they are not resident in Britain then the NHS hospital will need to know their identity before carrying out anything other than emergency treatment in order to charge them for the cost of treatment.

Hospitals don't yet kick people out who are at clinical risk because their nationaility or identity can't be established. And anyway most countries allow trans people to change their ID so that wouldn't change anything anyway.

barleybadminton · 03/02/2022 20:57

And any medical professional would easily spot those who gave had surgery (as would women)

No they wouldn't, not with any kind of accuracy. But are you suggesting women who appear a bit masculine should have detailed genital inspections before being allocated a hospital ward just in case they are trans?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 03/02/2022 20:59

Hahahahaha oh lord the utter desperation to suggest a medical professional wouldn’t be able to tell a man from a woman unless they could see a penis

I mean 😂😂😂😂😂

gcnurse · 03/02/2022 21:00

I'm a nurse who's spoken to Gill some about what she's gone through. We underestimate women's trauma enormously. She's been seemingly treated awfully, historically and now. Currently campaigning for nursing and midwifery to stop ignoring biological reality and evidence.

If there are any other nurses, midwives, healthcare professionals let me know- building a large network. We're at sexnotgenderNM on twitter.

EeeICouldRipATissue · 03/02/2022 21:08

And any medical professional would easily spot those who gave had surgery (as would women)
This is going down a dodgy road - you seem to be saying it's OK that it's fine for hospitals to undress /and or look at a woman's genitals when there's no medical need to and they're too out of it to notice or object.
To make sure they really are a woman.
Maybe people are OK with that, I don't see how they can be though!

Rheopecticfluid · 03/02/2022 21:08

@gcnurse

I'm a nurse who's spoken to Gill some about what she's gone through. We underestimate women's trauma enormously. She's been seemingly treated awfully, historically and now. Currently campaigning for nursing and midwifery to stop ignoring biological reality and evidence.

If there are any other nurses, midwives, healthcare professionals let me know- building a large network. We're at sexnotgenderNM on twitter.

♥️
Innocenta · 03/02/2022 21:09

I think there is a lot of unclarity around the actual circumstances of admission. People are not regularly being taken up to random wards while unconscious! That's just... not a thing. Of course it's possible to have a discourse with the overwhelming majority of patients.

Personally I think the problem is the enforcement of one ideological position over common sense. It doesn't, imo, make any sense to ask a (fully transitioned) trans woman to be on a men's ward. But equally I think if someone is early in transition then it may make more sense for them to be with their birth sex. It certainly shouldn't ever be the case that other patients are punished!

@barleybadminton how do you think a reasonable policy could actually work in practice? Something that would accommodate everyone.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 03/02/2022 21:10

And if medical staff had decided this woman was trans and placed her on the men's ward and she was abused that's just fine then is it?

////

Er absolutely not. And no ones said that.

EeeICouldRipATissue · 03/02/2022 21:10

Hospitals don't yet kick people out who are at clinical risk because their nationaility or identity can't be established
Exactly

Innocenta · 03/02/2022 21:11

@barleybadminton

If someone is that badly ill or injured that their sex cannot be ascertained, they are in a coma and unable to communicate, they probably are not going to be in a single sex ward anyway are they? They will be in a critical care unit.

Not necessarily if they are recovering from a stroke or something. Or just unconscious after emergency surgery. Or autistic or have a mental health condition. There's all kind of reasons people might not be communicative. And even if they can communicate what difference does it make, I thought people objected to self ID so why should medical staff believe them when they tell them their sex?

If they are not resident in Britain then the NHS hospital will need to know their identity before carrying out anything other than emergency treatment in order to charge them for the cost of treatment.

Hospitals don't yet kick people out who are at clinical risk because their nationaility or identity can't be established. And anyway most countries allow trans people to change their ID so that wouldn't change anything anyway.

If someone is so unwell as to be totally unable to communicate, they wouldn't normally be directed to ordinary level ward care.
Rheopecticfluid · 03/02/2022 21:11

Maybe people are OK with that, I don't see how they can be though!

But you're just fine with penis in women's sex segregated spaces.

interesting character, aren't you..... 🧐

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 03/02/2022 21:11

@barleybadminton

And any medical professional would easily spot those who gave had surgery (as would women)

No they wouldn't, not with any kind of accuracy. But are you suggesting women who appear a bit masculine should have detailed genital inspections before being allocated a hospital ward just in case they are trans?

Good grief, BB. Each to their own but I'd think that if that draconian solution seems viable to anyone then I'd suspect that person is strawmanning an ill-framed question or demonstrating an outlandish understanding of typical circumstances.
AssignedBlobbyAtBirth · 03/02/2022 21:14

Only a fool would not tell a hospital person their correct sex. If mistaken the results could be life threatening

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/02/2022 21:14

@EeeICouldRipATissue

And any medical professional would easily spot those who gave had surgery (as would women) This is going down a dodgy road - you seem to be saying it's OK that it's fine for hospitals to undress /and or look at a woman's genitals when there's no medical need to and they're too out of it to notice or object. To make sure they really are a woman. Maybe people are OK with that, I don't see how they can be though!
I do wonder if you have any idea what kind of care someone who is unconscious or unresponsive will require.

Do you think staff just sling people on a bed and leave them to sleep it off?

Innocenta · 03/02/2022 21:15

@PurgatoryOfPotholes I think some people on the thread really do not understand loss of consciousness at all.

EeeICouldRipATissue · 03/02/2022 21:16

interesting character, aren't you..... 🧐

So are you, seeing as you interestingly didn't say you had a problem with out of it women being undressed and/or genitally inspected to check their woman status.
Just brought it back to '' penis! ' again.
What about the women being inspected against their knowledge, or unable for any reason to say no?

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 03/02/2022 21:18

I think something like 80% of TW do indeed have a penis still.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 03/02/2022 21:22

@gcnurse

I'm a nurse who's spoken to Gill some about what she's gone through. We underestimate women's trauma enormously. She's been seemingly treated awfully, historically and now. Currently campaigning for nursing and midwifery to stop ignoring biological reality and evidence.

If there are any other nurses, midwives, healthcare professionals let me know- building a large network. We're at sexnotgenderNM on twitter.

I just wanted to bump this post
barleybadminton · 03/02/2022 21:23

@Innocenta

I think there is a lot of unclarity around the actual circumstances of admission. People are not regularly being taken up to random wards while unconscious! That's just... not a thing. Of course it's possible to have a discourse with the overwhelming majority of patients.

Personally I think the problem is the enforcement of one ideological position over common sense. It doesn't, imo, make any sense to ask a (fully transitioned) trans woman to be on a men's ward. But equally I think if someone is early in transition then it may make more sense for them to be with their birth sex. It certainly shouldn't ever be the case that other patients are punished!

@barleybadminton how do you think a reasonable policy could actually work in practice? Something that would accommodate everyone.

Well I'm glad you don't have such a dogmatic approach as some posters, although your first post isn't correct, it happened to a friend of mine quite recently who was taken to hospital and placed on a mainstream ward whilst being unable to communicate. And all communication means is they can self ID their sex which most people don't approve of on this thread I suspect.

I think there is room for compromise if someone is very early into transition, or perhaps non binary. Firstly the reality whether right or wrong is that a lot of NHS wards are already mixed sex so they could go there. I wouldn't have a problem with such people being moved to a seperate room on their own either. I think like many things this could be easily addressed with a few more resources and a bit of common sense. But it won't be perfect and the idea that single sex wards can always be fully XX/assigned female at birth/whatever other arbitary classification people want to use, is neither practical nor possible, because the realities of people's bodies, legal status, physical presentation and identities are more complex than that.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/02/2022 21:24

@EeeICouldRipATissue

interesting character, aren't you..... 🧐

So are you, seeing as you interestingly didn't say you had a problem with out of it women being undressed and/or genitally inspected to check their woman status.
Just brought it back to '' penis! ' again.
What about the women being inspected against their knowledge, or unable for any reason to say no?

Here's an essay about that.

extract

If me speaking about what it is like to live with a severe disability is ‘disgusting’ to you because I required female only care I don’t think the problem is with my outlook but yours. I had no knowledge or say in who was caring for me, being in a coma. When I was awake I did have male and female nurses change my tubes, feed me, look after me. The NHS is staffed by super heroes. What I was talking about was the need for female only intimate care. I described how as a schoolgirl I was stripped naked and washed by strangers, for months. How I hated it and couldn’t communicate my distress nor move my body away and how it has had a lasting impact. The term ‘intimate care’ obscures what we are talking about. I still get a sense of deep shame and hurt to tell people this. It is not just one’s back,legs and other limbs which are washed, it is your vulva, your breasts. Strangers are touching these parts of you. What about my humanity? My last shred of dignity? This was distressing enough with same-sex nurses, can you imagine what it would have been like having an unknown male do this to me?

Although I was still a teenager, like a staggering number of women and girls, by this stage of my life I had already experienced violence and sexual abuse at the hands of men. It had already made me weird about bathrooms. I lost a lot of long term memory in the accident, like a scrap book having clumps of pages ripped out, but for my eternal punishment some of the memories I would rather loose have remained. Time has not dimmed them, nor my reaction to male bodies.

If we discard all of this and focus on the males (like you like to do), it is not safe to have mixed sex care of the vulnerable. 98% of sex offenders are male, and sex offenders will move to positions where they have access to victims. This is why sex offenders tend to work in certain professions and not on oil rigs. The research showing that disabled women are more vulnerable to abuse has been dug out and provided by @torpidferret.One commentator on my original thread, @Minnie_kinn, has raised how ‘A disabled woman who gave birth at an Arizona care facility had been raped repeatedly. Her parents had requested that she be cared for by females [and]was assured of it. Instead, unsupervised males were allowed to go into her room’. The news report ishere.

American researchshows that ‘people with intellectual disabilities — women and men — are the victims of sexual assaults at rates more than seven times those for people without disabilities’.

With this in mind, if one in four women are sexually assaulted in their life-time then think what sentence having a disability places on a woman? Indeed, ‘Eighty-three percent of disabled women experience rape or abuse, often at the hands of caretakers‘.

This is not about trans, I couldn’t give a tinkle what they are wearing, it is sex which is important here. Not one rape is acceptable to me in order to please men and accommodate their feelings. I will not take the risk with women and girls’ safety. You clearly do not think that women have full humanity as you wish to subjugate their safety and happiness to appease male feelings. Women and girls deserve kindness, dignity and their full humanity to be recognised and respected. We are not just fetish fodder for men. That these men propose to force themselves on me and other women and into our spaces for their own pleasure at women’s clear discomfort tells me everything I need to know about them.

uncommongroundmedia.com/why-disabled-women-requesting-female-only-intimate-care-is-not-disgusting/

abitofadvice1234 · 03/02/2022 21:24

What this incident proves is that the Gender Critical movement is an obsessed and damaging moral panic that has nothing to do with women’s rights or feminism, and everything to do with a disgust response.

All I see on this board (and the feminism chat one) is obsession about trans people. Threads and threads of posters going in about the erasure of women’s sex based rights being erased. But never any discussion of sex based oppression. Pink taxes, period equity, the world designed to be default male, etc… All highly relevant topics but never brought up on the gender discussions board. Only obsession about trans people.

What the tweeter was doing was gatekeeping womanhood, and attempting (in error) to keep out a cis woman and calling a cis woman a “man” because of perceived masculine traits. Voice and looks, based on the gender critical ideology of “always being able to tell.” A non traditionally presenting woman getting scaremongered over and demonized for her appearance while she was laid up in hospital.

For the lurkers on the fence, see this for what it is. Hate. Not feminism.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 03/02/2022 21:26

All this discussion about whether we can tell, it's not practical to establish biological sex on admittance etc

If some people men stayed out of woman's safe spaces unless they have a legitimate reason to be there this whole conversation would not need to happen.

barleybadminton · 03/02/2022 21:28

@AssignedBlobbyAtBirth

Only a fool would not tell a hospital person their correct sex. If mistaken the results could be life threatening
That very much depends on their condition. But also, if a fully transitioned trans women thought she might be placed on a ward full of men if she discloses she is trans then she may well risk it. Another reason why such a policy would be dangerous and impractical.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/02/2022 21:28

It is sometimes claimed that board is overly focused on one issue. To that, I would respond that there are two separate feminism boards, and that if you do not want to discuss this issue, use the other board provided.

Anyway, I think it is very important that women don't have anyone with a penis providing intimate care to them while unconscious, and I hope Eel can agree with me on this.

EeeICouldRipATissue · 03/02/2022 21:29

purgatory yes, but you seem to have missed where I said no medical need.
If you have a severe disability, you clearly have need?
If it's just to inspect whether a woman is woman that's not the same.

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