Male midwife facing 29 charges of misconduct,

[TheLoneRager]

NMC hearing started today, expected to last four days, of a senior male midwife accused of, among other things, having taken pictures of two women having caesarian sections without their permission and also filmed himself performing a sex act in a hospital toilet.
He faces 29 misconduct charges.

Will be watching this case this week.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10439033/Bullying-male-midwife-alleged-taken-pictures-two-women-having-Caesarean-sections.html

I get the distinct impression this is connected to the phenomenon whereby men are lauded as heroes and thrown parades for performing basic acts of parenting that nobody blinks at when it's a woman doing it

So true. DH has had strangers come up to him and say what a great dad he is - just for perfectly normal interactions with his kids (on a bus or whatever). Like you say, nobody bats an eye at a woman doing the same thing.

Experienced it in childcare too, and primary teaching - a man doing the job is amaaaaazing.

I’m glad I’m done having babies. I never had a male MW, now I think about it though I did have various bits of my first induction done by a male doctor, as a meek 20 year old I did find him far less empathetic and gentle than the female doctors/MWs. I felt like I’d done something wrong because it wasn’t working, he really put a shadow over the whole experience TBH.

I’ve always thought that it’s very odd for a male medic to choose to go into obs&gynae as a specialism.

I mean, why do they want a job that on a daily basis involves carrying out the most intimate of medical examinations on women who are, physically, given the position we need to adopt, totally powerless?? Makes one think.

@KevinTheKoala there was a report recently that stated women were more likely to die during surgery performed by a man so there may be something in saying let’s have female Drs (actual females, not folk playing dress up) for women and male Drs for men. I certainly wouldn’t have an issue with it.

amp.theguardian.com/society/2022/jan/04/women-more-likely-die-operation-male-surgeon-study

I posted something recently about this. We know the importance of single sex toilets but then women are expected to be ok with a man being involved in childbirth.

The obligation is on a women, maybe in the middle of labour, to be brave enough to say they don’t want a male midwife. Many women are afraid of doing this as they might be seen as implying they think the midwife is up to no good. Surely it should be an opt in thing if we have to have male midwives at all.

I had a male midwife who was horrible. I didn’t want a male midwife but I was in a hospital in an area with a lot of Muslim women. The hospital team told me these women couldn’t have him and led me to believe I’d be left without care if I didn’t agree.
He was rude and quite nasty at times. I was traumatised. I voiced concerns at various times but the other midwife’s thought the sun shone from him so I got nowhere. I was left feeling h as though I was awfully sexist but actually I think it was all about him. The female student nurse saved the day.

I also clicked on the thread to see if it was him. I remember his name.

Fair enough, don't ban anyone from jobs.

But I always question why the fuck any man entering a caring profession would think "oh yeah, women at their most vulnerable and emotional, involving intimate care! That's the line of work for me!"

Doesn't that show a completely lack of empathy or boundaries from kick off? Its completely self centred.

When I was younger, I'd have been one of the "It's fine. He's a professional" brigade.
Now that I'm older and a lot less naive, I believe that midwives should be female only. This is one of the things that EA exemptions should be used for.

The statistics are shocking.

I have a male midwife at the moment who is very enthusiastic, respectful, asks for consent before anything etc as one would hope would be the bare minimum. He’s also a trained Nurse practitioner. I have no issue with him performing all my check ups but I think I’d still want someone who had some personal insight into the kind of pain that comes with being female if they were to perform a sweep etc.

In the country I’m originally from we don’t really have a midwife system and a LOT of the doctors that deliver babies are men and I cannot imagine the anxiety for any pregnant woman who was a survivor of sexual abuse.

Oh for God’s sake, we can’t ban people of certain sexes from jobs. That will never end well.
What we can do is put a framework in place to make sure dodgy people don’t get employed in these roles.
I met a guy once who said he always knew he wanted to be a podiatrist and he felt it was his calling. Are you going to accuse him of being a foot fetishist?
Are we going to ban women from performing prostate and anal exams?
Training is the answer here not banning.
Well except for the guy in the Daily Mail link who should have been fired for being crap at his job.

And for being a pervert!

@5zeds

I think giving birth is a female experience and always has been.

So do I Before giving birth was medicalised it was the women in the community who would deal with births and while it’s brilliant that we now have medical advances to help I really feel that anything birth related should be female led. I probably would have refused a Male mw and I’m not an abuse survivor

Oh for God’s sake, we can’t ban people of certain sexes from jobs. That will never end well.

There's a legal exemption to allow exactly that.
And it's almost exclusively there to provide a safer outcome for women.

@GroggyLegs

Oh for God’s sake, we can’t ban people of certain sexes from jobs. That will never end well.

There's a legal exemption to allow exactly that.
And it's almost exclusively there to provide a safer outcome for women.

Quite. I don't see why not. The handful of male people who want to train as midwives each year can train as something else. There's no human right for a man to be a midwife.

@tackling

And if you are one, or know one, I don't care. Your feelings should not override us trying to maintain women's dignity and safety - and if you can't see the generalised risk here, you are part of the problem too.

Yep. I dgaf about the feelings of someone trying to argue against women's consent or boundaries. If you have a problem with it or can't understand why women would prefer female HCPs you shouldn't be in the job.

@WhiteCatmas

Oh for God’s sake, we can’t ban people of certain sexes from jobs. That will never end well. What we can do is put a framework in place to make sure dodgy people don’t get employed in these roles. I met a guy once who said he always knew he wanted to be a podiatrist and he felt it was his calling. Are you going to accuse him of being a foot fetishist? Are we going to ban women from performing prostate and anal exams? Training is the answer here not banning. Well except for the guy in the Daily Mail link who should have been fired for being crap at his job.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

Single sex services are permitted where:

only people of that sex require it;

there is joint provision for both sexes but that is not sufficient on its own;

if the service were provided for men and women jointly, it would not be as effective and it is not reasonably practicable to provide separate services for each sex;

they are provided in a hospital or other place where users need special attention (or in parts of such an establishment);

they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa); or

they may involve physical contact between a user and someone else and that other person may reasonably object if the user is of the opposite sex.

'Training is the answer here not banning.'

You can't train someone out of being a predator or fetishist! Do you not grasp that (some) people go for these jobs because it gives them access to their potential victims?!

Training is the answer here not banning

If people need "training" to not hurt theor patients, or to nor be a pervert then they shouldn't be in the job surely?

What training does one need to do a job after studying and qualifying? They know, they don't care. No amount of training will change that. Why are we always so keen to infantilise, explain and train. We need to accept some people just don't belong in.some jobs.

@KevinTheKoala

But what happens after we stop men doing certain jobs? Do we then stop women doing certain jobs as well? Are you OK with male surgeons/anaesthetists? Or do we need a totally segregated system? Stopping men from perusing a midwifery career is not the solution, a smaller number of males will want to become midwives and therefore obviously we do notice the abusive and sick ones more than we do the good but that doesn't meant that their aren't good male midwives, nor does mean there are not horrific female midwives. There needs to be closer monitoring of not just skills and knowledge but personality and whether or not that person is really suitable to work with vulnerable patients.

Obviously everyone has the right to refuse a male midwife and that should not change - that is absolutely 100% fair and I do think it should be asked before the woman goes into labour so that she isn't put on the spot or feels forced to accept. But I don't think its a good idea to deny people certain jobs because of their sex again.

If a quite surprising percentage of female people are using that job as a vehicle for sexually abusing or hurting male people when they are extremely vulnerable in order to meet their own needs, and it's part of an endemic problem in society, then yes, there would certainly be grounds to say do male people need better protection here? And should we be questioning this? Because I doubt at this point anyone will be rushing to shout But Not All Women Are Like That.

As a pp demonstrates: the problem with supposed 'choice' of who a male midwife can work with is that some women will be pressured to believe it's him or no one, and have to endure a situation they would not have chosen to be in, in one of the most vulnerable times of their life. Not to mention the worries about female colleagues fluffing up in defense of their male colleague being rejected and being angry about it and that's before they've stuffed fingers inside you. Women should not be put in this position. Not to meet the needs of male people, they really shouldn't.

So while I'm no fan of sex based restrictions, there clearly is grounds here to say this experiment has been tried, and it's not going as well for females as for males, and it needs questioning. Like male people in women's prisons. And mixed sex refuges. And mixed sex toilets.

Funny how we keep getting back to a sex based problem where one sex is always the loser to the better interests, wishes and choices of the other sex. It's like there's some massive imbalance of power and without separation at times, one sex always ends up at risk of exploitation or harm. Hmm. Could this be why females need the absolute, unquestioned option of gatekept single sex services? Where no male born person ever gets to be more important than the gatekept service or resource? And where using a mixed sex facility is therefore the informed choice of the female who has consented to it and is happy to take the potential risks involved?

@NeverDropYourMooncup

So far, that's a 6% rate of men who should never have been let within a hundred miles of a pregnant woman.

What's the rate for the general population?

I think that's probably roughly about accurate - 1 in 20 males are thought to have some abusive tendencies. From when I've tried to look into stats, etc.

I struggle with make gynae and midwifery. I just do. Yes it's me not them, may well be all in my head and prejudice... but I just don't want it... at all. Stories like this make me sick..

@1Week

So how does it work? Is it a trainee has to start of in a general discipline and then - I dunno - pass the gynea and obs modules and gets funnelled into this speciality? Or do you aim for it from the start? Not sure how it works.

In the UK you can do either 3 years nursing then 18 months midwifery. OR 3 year direct entry.

I wonder how many women don’t feel they can decline a male midwife.

I started a thread about the lack of consent with Nhs students and it’s quite clear from the replies that some medical people have no regard at all for consent.

You can’t train people not be perverts, but you can train people who are not performing scans well or internal exams well.

Perverts should be removed from the system before they even had a chance to qualify.

@MarbleQueen

I wonder how many women don’t feel they can decline a male midwife.

I started a thread about the lack of consent with Nhs students and it’s quite clear from the replies that some medical people have no regard at all for consent.

Many, I expect.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Saying that I had to have an internal scan recently and the male radiographer could not have been anymore respectful , kind and courteous

I've had a couple of male sonographers. Seemed pleasant enough. However they then proceeded to try and scan the table underneath me. I didn't know up til that point that it was possible for an ultrasound to he painful. I had to tell then to stop.

Men need to be aware of their strength. Really conscious of what they are doing..or they will and will continue to merely inflict pain

I had a female sonographer who shoved me, without warning, so hard that I nearly fell off the bed. When I said it hurt she rolled her eyes and muttered something about the baby’s position while continuing to push and shove. My stomach was sore for days.

The man who did my next one was respectful and really put me at ease.

I didn’t have a male midwife but the male consultant I was moved to after complaining about my initial consultant was great, and the surgeon who delivered my son was respectful too. Plus the male anesthesiologist was an absolute angel, he really advocated for me when I was at my most vulnerable.

Before having my baby I was horrified by the idea of a man being involved in my care. Now I’m not so sure.