Do people see centre left parties as more moral?

[ukipperMN]

Hi,

I’m an ex-UKIP member who hasn’t been active in politics since we got brexit done, if I were to join another party and become active in politics again I’d likely join Richard Tice’s Reform Party or possibly the heritage party but I’ve no plans to join either at the moment or become politically active again.

I am watching the debate on self ID with interest but am not playing a part in it, just watching things unfold with interest and had some questions and wanted to hear people’s thoughts.

What I really don’t understand is why so many of the people so against self ID seem to want to only vote for parties that want self ID (lab/Lib/PC/SNP/Green etc). It’s not an accident that all major centre left parties support self ID, self ID is entirely consistent and compatible with the centre left’s ideology/world view. I also read somewhere (don’t know if it’s true) that women are more likely to vote for centre left parties than men are. In fact if only women voted I think we might have a Labour government and self ID would likely be law by now.

I wondered why this is and thought I would put my head above the parapet and ask. Do people (and feminists in particular) tend to see the centre left as the more moral position, the kinder, gentler more compassionate opinion to vote for?

I expect self ID will become law in the U.K. eventually and I think it is likely to become law in Scotland in the next year or so. And I think many feminists opposed to self ID will likely vote for the parties that make it law and vote for them again after it becomes law.

I’ve seen polls where certain policies poll very well but once people find out whose policies they are they go off the policy and say they will never vote for the party proposing the policy regardless. Likewise unpopular policies can become supported if the party proposing them is viewed favourably. It seems to be a moral perception where people see some parties are morally better than others. Would posters agree with that observation?

This is why I think self ID will become law regardless of how popular it is now. People see the parties committed to it as good and will eventually elect them regardless of what they promise to do.

“self ID is entirely consistent and compatible with the centre left’s ideology/world view.”

Can you explain how? I can’t think of any other policy that is equivalent to allowing people to choose whichever protected group they prefer, regardless of facts. I’d be very interested to hear what you feel is comparable or gives precedent.

Yes. It's no coincidence there are the Republican Jesus memes.

If the parties concerned were indeed “good” then what the hell are they doing propagating lies and changing laws that will profoundly affect women and girl, when male violence is right up there as a huge problem around the world. Spoiled my vote last time and would do so again.

And definitely not for any party that thinks Brexit was a great idea and has worked well.

It’s not an accident that all major centre left parties support self ID, self ID is entirely consistent and compatible with the centre left’s ideology/world view.

Would you mind explaining this? What do you see as the centre left's ideology/world view?

@CatherinaJTV

Yes. It's no coincidence there are the Republican Jesus memes.

Sorry your comment is lost on me. What are the Republican Jesus memes?

If you’re talking about the Republican Party in the United States then I’d say that they are a party of the moderate/mainstream centre right in America and I would expect them to be broadly against self ID in principle and their centre left opponents in the American Democratic Party to be much more in favour of it. And yes that’s not a coincidence, it’s the result of the ideology and principles that underpin each party. Although I have no idea what that has to do with “Jesus memes”. You’ll have to forgive me I’m middle aged and probably not up to date with internet lingo.

"self ID is entirely consistent and compatible with the centre left’s ideology/world view."

Utter nonsense, what does a voter of the far right know about the people in the centre left?

Self ID is something promoted by the facists who fooled you into thinking reich-wing politicians care about you and your family.

Left wing people prefer treating humans, male or female, as individuals. This grouping people into label sets and judging them on that is not a left wing thing, it is standard right wing "divide and rule" tactics that you fell for.

ukipper MN - you can google these memes. They satirise the inhumanity of the right wing. The question was: do people see centre left parties as more moral, and the answer is yes, they do. With good reason, too.

I also read somewhere (don’t know if it’s true) that women are more likely to vote for centre left parties than men are. In fact if only women voted I think we might have a Labour government and self ID would likely be law by now.

Cool data points.

The argument that women are more likely to vote left was one of the arguments used against women's suffrage.

If you’re talking about the Republican Party in the United States then I’d say that they are a party of the moderate /mainstream centre right in America

Just as an aside did you think that President Trump was moderate/ mainstream centre right?

@catzwhiskas

If the parties concerned were indeed “good” then what the hell are they doing propagating lies and changing laws that will profoundly affect women and girl, when male violence is right up there as a huge problem around the world. Spoiled my vote last time and would do so again.

Well I don’t entirely know why the centre left are seen as good and morally superior to the centre right, it’s just my observation that many people do seem (to me at least) to think that they are.

Perhaps this is just how the various political parties view themselves in relation to each other? Perhaps the Tories tend to see Labour as a party with different opinions to them while some in Labour tend to see the Tories as a party with bad morals? I don’t see people who disagree with me as bad or immoral but when I was campaigning for brexit I received so much personal abuse from people on the left that it seemed clear to me that some on the left don’t just see me as someone they disagree with but more like someone they think is bad. And they certainly didn’t give me the same consideration and respect that I was willing to show towards them, many of them responded with abuse and personal attacks and no debate at all.

This is why I think people will continue to vote for parties that want self ID even if they really don’t agree with self ID personally. Because they see voting for the alternative as immoral and something they could never do. And that’s why I think self ID will eventually become law in the U.K.

Gosh, what a huge subject for a first post on Mumsnet! I don't, unfortunately, have the hours required to write a comprehensive rebuttal of your views but I didn't want to ignore you.

'Ultraconservative' Iran:

www.dw.com/en/iran-how-transgender-people-survive-ultraconservative-rule/a-57480850

"..Tehran, has been dubbed one of the world's hubs for sex-reassignment surgery. Transgender individuals live and work with no legal barriers in the country. The government even helps with the costs of hormone medicine and gender reassignment surgery for those who want it."

Yeah, broadly I do think left-wing parties are more moral than right-wing ones. Left-wing thinking tends to centre others/the aggregate, whereas right-wing thinking is, usually quite unabashedly, all about self and the individual.

My father taught me when I was tiny that Tories were people whose parents hadn't taught them to share. I'm now in my late 40s with a degree in history/political theory and an extremely wide-ranging professional background, and I've seen nothing whatsoever that dislodges that principle.

I don’t see people who disagree with me as bad or immoral but when I was campaigning for brexit I received so much personal abuse from people on the left that it seemed clear to me that some on the left don’t just see me as someone they disagree with but more like someone they think is bad.

I don't get your logic, disagreement with Brexit wasn't only from the left.

I suspect the majority of women here with concerns about the gender ideology political lobby are centre left to full left at heart, just without a left party available to vote for who aren't full out buried in anti-woman politics with many other concerning features.

No. There's a difference between thinking that many centre left policies would generally make for a fairer society and thinking that all left/centre-left policies, or indeed politicians and voters, are inherently morally good and that all right-wing ones are morally bad.

Letting one group of people appropriate or trample over the rights of a historically oppressed or disadvantaged group just because they've decided they want to does not seem very morally superior to me.

I'm centre-left but refuse to vote for any party who won't admit they know perfectly well what a woman is. I won't vote for a right-wing party either though, so I guess I'll be spoiling my ballot paper.

The only people who see the left as more moral are people on the left.

Letting one group of people appropriate or trample over the rights of a historically oppressed or disadvantaged group just because they've decided they want to does not seem very morally superior to me.

^^This

A man who is ignoring most of us because we asked him to justify a sweeping statement he made. How lovely!

Perhaps the Tories tend to see Labour as a party with different opinions to them while some in Labour tend to see the Tories as a party with bad morals?

From your posts so far, I suspect that your opinion of us is rather more negative than “people with different opinions”.

I think centre right could be considered selfish, I only need think of myself (bad) or that we all have an individual responsibility to ourselves and to help others (good).

Centre left could be considered that we must work as a society to ensure everyone is looked after (good) or everyone should look after me (bad)

I remember a poster on MN a while ago who stated their DP was so left wing he didn't think he should have to work. Which I guess is the opposite end of the scale to saying if someone cannot work they should starve. Both positions I would say are morally bad.

self ID may come under 'society should look after me' which is more left?

No. There's a difference between thinking that many centre left policies would generally make for a fairer society and thinking that all left/centre-left policies, or indeed politicians and voters, are inherently morally good and that all right-wing ones are morally bad.

This is an excellent summary of my pov on this.

Self Id seems to me to centre right/ individualism

So that's why labour are so keen I guess - the Blair heritage

I think you can be moral on either side, but the left get so tied up in one individuals plight they harm wider society by trumpeting the cause at everyone elses expense, while the right are so busy seeing the forest they damage the trees by not noticing the cost to individuals.

I think self-ID is immoral and will not be voting for any party that promotes it even though I used to.