Do people see centre left parties as more moral?

[ukipperMN]

Hi,

I’m an ex-UKIP member who hasn’t been active in politics since we got brexit done, if I were to join another party and become active in politics again I’d likely join Richard Tice’s Reform Party or possibly the heritage party but I’ve no plans to join either at the moment or become politically active again.

I am watching the debate on self ID with interest but am not playing a part in it, just watching things unfold with interest and had some questions and wanted to hear people’s thoughts.

What I really don’t understand is why so many of the people so against self ID seem to want to only vote for parties that want self ID (lab/Lib/PC/SNP/Green etc). It’s not an accident that all major centre left parties support self ID, self ID is entirely consistent and compatible with the centre left’s ideology/world view. I also read somewhere (don’t know if it’s true) that women are more likely to vote for centre left parties than men are. In fact if only women voted I think we might have a Labour government and self ID would likely be law by now.

I wondered why this is and thought I would put my head above the parapet and ask. Do people (and feminists in particular) tend to see the centre left as the more moral position, the kinder, gentler more compassionate opinion to vote for?

I expect self ID will become law in the U.K. eventually and I think it is likely to become law in Scotland in the next year or so. And I think many feminists opposed to self ID will likely vote for the parties that make it law and vote for them again after it becomes law.

I’ve seen polls where certain policies poll very well but once people find out whose policies they are they go off the policy and say they will never vote for the party proposing the policy regardless. Likewise unpopular policies can become supported if the party proposing them is viewed favourably. It seems to be a moral perception where people see some parties are morally better than others. Would posters agree with that observation?

This is why I think self ID will become law regardless of how popular it is now. People see the parties committed to it as good and will eventually elect them regardless of what they promise to do.

The movement towards self-ID has happened more less simultaneously across Western nations. That should be a big clue that this is not happening because of any particular politician or political party in the UK. It's a broader phenomenon.

The activist base who support and push for this appear to be drawn pretty exclusively from the socially progressive end of the political spectrum (albeit that some of the philosophical underpinnings of the movement could be argued to be influenced by elements of libertarian individualism). As there are more of these people on the left, it is unsurprisingly the more left wing and/or socially liberal political parties that have embraced self-ID and the trans movement more generally. But there are also examples (given in this thread) of socially liberal but right of centre politicians who support this cause and it is not inconceivable that a Conservative government trying to burnish its progressive credentials could one day try to bring in self-ID.

Paradoxically many of the strongest opponents of self-ID are drawn from the social progressive part of the political spectrum. This is probably because those are the people who have the greatest exposure to the ideology, have spent the most time considering the implications and therefore have the most well thought out objections. By contrast, I don't think many opponents on the right differentiate this issue from their general antipathy towards left-wing "wokeness".

This is not at root a party political issue, and no part of the political spectrum is wholly to blame nor wholly free of responsibility.

@jellyfrizz

'Ultraconservative' Iran:

www.dw.com/en/iran-how-transgender-people-survive-ultraconservative-rule/a-57480850

"..Tehran, has been dubbed one of the world's hubs for sex-reassignment surgery. Transgender individuals live and work with no legal barriers in the country. The government even helps with the costs of hormone medicine and gender reassignment surgery for those who want it."

I was surprised the first time I heard this, but is it not perhaps related to homesexuality being a crime.

So ... what you do is ...

Cut a hole in the ice

Dangle your Fishing line through the hole

Then wait ...

Exercise patience cos it might take a little while

... the Republican Party in the United States then I’d say that they are a party of the moderate/mainstream centre right ...

This is a joke yeah?

@Divebar2021

If you’re talking about the Republican Party in the United States then I’d say that they are a party of the moderate /mainstream centre right in America

Just as an aside did you think that President Trump was moderate/ mainstream centre right?

Trump was a Democrat for most of his life. If you found his populism outrageous, that says more about you than him.

The Democrat* Party abandoned us, not the other way around. The Party is now nothing but an inter-generational grift.

Speaking of grift, rumors are swirling that Hillary "we came, we saw, he died" Clinton is going to run in 2024. I'm sure you'll be thrilled that someone renowned for destroying nations - and therefore not at all extreme - might be the next President.

*I don't use the word "democratic" here for the same reason I'll never refer to a man as "she".

@LemonSwan

I am a swing voter - mid left on the quadrant but first and foremost a libertarian.

At the moment the left parties are all authoritarian to me. So for a while now I have had to vote right.

The quadrants on party analysis seem to recognise UK left parties as more libertarian and torys as more authoritarian - but for me they aren't. Anyone who shuts down other opinions as uneducated, bigoted etc etc. are authoritarian to me; and I appreciate thats a feeling rather than a policy which is maybe why its not recognised.

I've noticed this with these kinds of quadrant analysis.

When you look at the questions they ask, I think that's the problem - they are making the wrong assumptions about what ideas correlate with authoritarianism. I think it's basically out of date thinking.

@joolzfromyork

So ... what you do is ...

Cut a hole in the ice

Dangle your Fishing line through the hole

Then wait ...

Exercise patience cos it might take a little while

... the Republican Party in the United States then I’d say that they are a party of the moderate/mainstream centre right ...

This is a joke yeah?

The US has a different political tradition than the UK. There has never really been a large red Tory type conservative movement there - what existed was more in the South, and wasn't necessarily Republican, either, and doesn't exist any more as a voting option.

Most of their other conservatives were Enlightenment type classical liberals.

Similarly their leftist tradition is somewhat different, in part because it developed against a different conservative tradition.

Both their parties are very broad, and include both moderates and some very extreme positions. Trump was an anomaly, in that he was always, as a private citizen, a Democrat, and in politics he was drawing on some old fashioned leftism and also old fashion conservatism of the non-liberal kind. Which is why there was a contingent of voters whose first two choices were either sanders/Trump. or vice versa.

There does seem to be a perception that anything remotely framed as 'left wing' or 'progressive' is inherently moral and superior by those who subscribe to such ideas. I'm intrigued when some people deny this because it's pretty obvious from reading all kinds of stuff online and from conversations in person that this is the mainstream narrative and general mindset among 'lefties/liberals'. It's all about Good vs Bad to them.
There is no acknowledgement that people on the soft or centre right may also care about various social issues, but probably disagree on how to best fix them.

What I've noticed over the years is that people that tend towards the left are very invested in the concept of 'marginalised groups'. Anything or anyone labelled as marginalised must be supported wholeheartedly against a perceived 'oppressor'. The validity of the marginalised group must never be questioned. - that's the important bit...

The benefit of this approach is that people who are affected by injustice or treated unfairly are supported and given consideration. The downside is that there ends up being an infantilisation of such people / groups. They need to be patronisingly viewed as perpetual victims with no agency so that the narrative can continue.

Another big downside is that groups / people that aren't particularly marginalised or oppressed can (deliberately or unconsciously) reframe themselves as such and thereby get the unquestioning allegiance of those that tend towards the left. We see this with the rise of identity politics. The simplistic oppressor vs oppressed narrative leaves many people feeling uncomfortable about themselves and with much self-loathing, but call yourself non-binary or self-diagnose a list of conditions and voila, you have conveniently switched from 'oppressor' group to 'oppressed' and 'marginalised'.
And because claims of marginalisation are not allowed to be questioned under this framework, it is susceptible to manipulation and exploitation, ironically by those with power and influence.

I don't have as much exposure to right-wing political views until fairly recently, but again over the years I've noticed there's a tendency to favour individual ability and initiative. This has its merits and demerits as well.

Those that lean left prefer more government intervention and less individual accountability, while those that lean right prefer less government intervention and more individual effort. Neither is inherently moral or good, and in my opinion different issues need different combinations of both types of approaches.

The authoritarian / liberal axis and the conservative / progressive axis also adds further complicated dimensions to people's views and I agree with previous posts that left-right categorisation is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Issues like gender ideology and Brexit are fascinating in a sense because people from all parts of the political spectrum can either support or oppose it depending on the angle they take.

Like you can be an avid supporter of gender ideology because you think anyone who calls themselves trans is marginalised without question, or you think an individual should be free to do whatever they like irrespective of how it might affect others/society or even themselves, or you think men and women should conform to strict stereotypes and those that don't are somehow 'aberrations' that should be 'corrected' by surgery or legal changes.

Similarly, those that oppose gender ideology might take the view that simply claiming one is marginalised or oppressed isn't sufficient - you have to consider material evidence and reality; or individual liberty has its limits especially when it starts to impact others or society in a wider sense; or that government enforcement of certain beliefs and social norms are an infringement on individual liberty, free speech, freedom of belief etc; or that 'men should be men and women should be women' and a religious / very conservative approach would be to oppose gender identity on the basis of that principle.

Speaking of grift, rumors are swirling that Hillary "we came, we saw, he died" Clinton is going to run in 2024. I'm sure you'll be thrilled that someone renowned for destroying nations - and therefore not at all extreme - might be the next President.

There's no way she will win, surely? She couldn't even beat Trump! Surely the Democrats have better candidates

The quadrants on party analysis seem to recognise UK left parties as more libertarian and torys as more authoritarian

I think the degree of authoritarianism of the parties can be seen by the behaviour of their MPs/MSPs in parliament. By this measure the Tories are one of the least authoritarian parties - with rebels and splits across the party and government having to convince it's parliamentarians which way to vote. In contrast the SNP is scarily authoritarian. There must be no dissent and all must follow the parties lead.

@SantaClawsServiette
@Lovelyricepudding

Yes I agree. I do think the torys are the least authoritarian atm. And yes the SNP are bloody scary. My mum is scottish and she often refers to Sturgeon as Nic Hitler.

I think a lot of the swing are people who align more with libertarian/authoritarian lines than left/ right (even if subconsciously rather than recognising it).

And as we all know its the swing who decides every election.

I really wish the left would sort itself out because like a PP stated - I agree that change is important to combat corruption and instigate reassessment of whats working and whats not.

And better still I would really like us to have a more direct democracy like Switzerland where we have to vote on policies & laws directly. Because as PP have also said, all these parts of the spectrum get in the way of policy direction, and cross party/ whole country progress is not as much as a pipe dream as I think some would like to believe. Most people do genuinely want everyone to have a better and easier life.

Speaking of grift, rumors are swirling that Hillary "we came, we saw, he died" Clinton is going to run in 2024. I'm sure you'll be thrilled that someone renowned for destroying nations - and therefore not at all extreme - might be the next President.

Hmmmm ... thinking Kamala might have an opinion on that

Personally, I dont mind who wins the Presidency next time round ... so long as, whoever it is, they aren't a Fascist.

why the hell do you think Self ID is a left thing? we have a Tory government and all this gender stuff started with them.

if you want to be tribal thats your problem, politics isnt a football team.

I will not vote Labour, Green etc because they are populist arseholes, I see no difference between them now and your Ukip and tories, lying rich people who dont give a crap about the people, the country etc all they care about is lying to get control so they can help themselves to the public purse.

I liked Corbyn and I last voted for TUSC at least they seemed different and talked about helping the poor and services.

I don’t see people who disagree with me as bad or immoral but when I was campaigning for brexit I received so much personal abuse from people on the left that it seemed clear to me that some on the left don’t just see me as someone they disagree with but more like someone they think is bad

you were a member of UKIP what did you expect, you were a member of a party that lied about the EU/immigration, scare mongered, demonized foreigners and encouraged racism.

@jellyfrizz

'Ultraconservative' Iran:

www.dw.com/en/iran-how-transgender-people-survive-ultraconservative-rule/a-57480850

"..Tehran, has been dubbed one of the world's hubs for sex-reassignment surgery. Transgender individuals live and work with no legal barriers in the country. The government even helps with the costs of hormone medicine and gender reassignment surgery for those who want it."

Yep transing away the gay.

@Divebar2021

If you’re talking about the Republican Party in the United States then I’d say that they are a party of the moderate /mainstream centre right in America

Just as an aside did you think that President Trump was moderate/ mainstream centre right?

There is no left wing party in the US. The republicans are very far right, much more than our Tory party. The Democrats pretty much centre right, close to the Tories. This is after all the country where the Communist Party is a banned organisation.

I think we often don't realise here in the UK how little political diversity there is in the US.

I would place the Tories to the left of the Democrats.

why the hell do you think Self ID is a left thing? we have a Tory government and all this gender stuff started with them

VelvetChairGirl can you explain this? I don't recall MaGareth Thatcher or John Major's governments doing much with 'this gender stuff'? The major screw up was labour and the GRA.

Margaret - weird autocorrect

@Lovelyricepudding

why the hell do you think Self ID is a left thing? we have a Tory government and all this gender stuff started with them

VelvetChairGirl can you explain this? I don't recall MaGareth Thatcher or John Major's governments doing much with 'this gender stuff'? The major screw up was labour and the GRA.

Deliberately going back to before the movement captured Stonewall I see.

who has been in power for the last 11 years again?
and what have they done to stop males being put in womens prisons, what have they done to ensure sex not gender is the definer?

VelvetChairGirl you said the gender stuff started with the Tories. I consider it started with the GRA which undermined the Equality Act and set up the lie that men can be women. The rest has been progressive (regressive) creep from there. I think the Tories should have repealed the GRA a decade ago and certainly should be stopping the abuse now. But we are talking about which party 'started it'.

@Lovelyricepudding

VelvetChairGirl you said the gender stuff started with the Tories. I consider it started with the GRA which undermined the Equality Act and set up the lie that men can be women. The rest has been progressive (regressive) creep from there. I think the Tories should have repealed the GRA a decade ago and certainly should be stopping the abuse now. But we are talking about which party 'started it'.

The GRA Doesnt say anything about Self ID or gender ideology, it also states clearly that trans people with a GRC can be excluded from sports if their inclusion causes an unfair advantage, and they can be excluded from single sex and safe spaces where their is a need in line with the Equality Act.

so why isn't the GRA and Equality Act being enforced?

I dont remember any of this encroachment being around back in 2009, nor do I remember everywhere referring to gender not sex do you?

so who's watch has all this occurred under unchallenged?

How would that encroachment have happened without the GRA creating the lie that you can change sex? Or the Equality Act gender reassignment protected characteristic mean transfer orgs claim discrimination if not treated as the opposite sex. What has happened under the Tories (and I don't dispute that they have miserably failed to challenge it or uphold women's rights) developed from groundwork laid down in law under Labour.

@Lovelyricepudding

How would that encroachment have happened without the GRA creating the lie that you can change sex? Or the Equality Act gender reassignment protected characteristic mean transfer orgs claim discrimination if not treated as the opposite sex. What has happened under the Tories (and I don't dispute that they have miserably failed to challenge it or uphold women's rights) developed from groundwork laid down in law under Labour.

theres a big difference between gender reassignment which the GRA is about and self id which stonewall is obsessed with and lied about the law to make people believe was part of UK legislation.

and the UK government i.e Tories have done nothing about it and countless Government bodies signed up to Stonewall for advice even the PM.

theres a big difference between gender reassignment which the GRA is about and self id which stonewall is obsessed with and lied about the law to make people believe was part of UK legislation.

There is but without one there would not be the other.

@VelvetChairGirl

I don’t see people who disagree with me as bad or immoral but when I was campaigning for brexit I received so much personal abuse from people on the left that it seemed clear to me that some on the left don’t just see me as someone they disagree with but more like someone they think is bad

you were a member of UKIP what did you expect, you were a member of a party that lied about the EU/immigration, scare mongered, demonized foreigners and encouraged racism.

'You asked for it'? 'You deserved it'? 'Look what you made them do'?

Casting a vote for Brexit or supporting UKIP in its quest to leave the EU was absolutely, without doubt, clear grounds for other people to personally abuse & intimidate them?!

🤷🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️