Do people see centre left parties as more moral?

[ukipperMN]

Hi,

I’m an ex-UKIP member who hasn’t been active in politics since we got brexit done, if I were to join another party and become active in politics again I’d likely join Richard Tice’s Reform Party or possibly the heritage party but I’ve no plans to join either at the moment or become politically active again.

I am watching the debate on self ID with interest but am not playing a part in it, just watching things unfold with interest and had some questions and wanted to hear people’s thoughts.

What I really don’t understand is why so many of the people so against self ID seem to want to only vote for parties that want self ID (lab/Lib/PC/SNP/Green etc). It’s not an accident that all major centre left parties support self ID, self ID is entirely consistent and compatible with the centre left’s ideology/world view. I also read somewhere (don’t know if it’s true) that women are more likely to vote for centre left parties than men are. In fact if only women voted I think we might have a Labour government and self ID would likely be law by now.

I wondered why this is and thought I would put my head above the parapet and ask. Do people (and feminists in particular) tend to see the centre left as the more moral position, the kinder, gentler more compassionate opinion to vote for?

I expect self ID will become law in the U.K. eventually and I think it is likely to become law in Scotland in the next year or so. And I think many feminists opposed to self ID will likely vote for the parties that make it law and vote for them again after it becomes law.

I’ve seen polls where certain policies poll very well but once people find out whose policies they are they go off the policy and say they will never vote for the party proposing the policy regardless. Likewise unpopular policies can become supported if the party proposing them is viewed favourably. It seems to be a moral perception where people see some parties are morally better than others. Would posters agree with that observation?

This is why I think self ID will become law regardless of how popular it is now. People see the parties committed to it as good and will eventually elect them regardless of what they promise to do.

@Lovelyricepudding

theres a big difference between gender reassignment which the GRA is about and self id which stonewall is obsessed with and lied about the law to make people believe was part of UK legislation.

There is but without one there would not be the other.

not true transexuals have been around for decades and gender reassignment doesn't trump the equality act single sex provision laws.

and has nothing to do with gender identity, self ID, gender fluid etc and conflating sex with gender, thats all Stonewall.

*'You asked for it'?
'You deserved it'?
'Look what you made them do'?

Casting a vote for Brexit or supporting UKIP in its quest to leave the EU was absolutely, without doubt, clear grounds for other people to personally abuse & intimidate them?!*

may I remind you of the adverts UKIP posted and the words of farage, here is some.

fubarradio.com/politics/stupidly-offensive-things-nigel-farage-has-said/

@madisonbridges

It is totally possible to understand others... if you have empathy and compassion.

Things lacking in the voters who trend far right, as evidenced by the posts and behaviours of those voters and the politican'ts they vote in.

Simple really, it is just about human behaviour.

To believe that no one outside the left has any empathy or compassion demonstrates that you have absolutely no knowledge of human behaviour. I doubt you ever will when you're happy just living in an echo chamber.

Nd by the way, the left voted in TB. Did he bomb Iraq to smithereens and destabilise the ME out of compassion and empathy?

You mean Tony the Tory?

Yes he was the most successful tory prime minister we have ever had, he made the country more right wing than the evil beast thatcher.

And I did not not say no one outside the left has compassion, what I did say was the right wingers do not have it...

But since you appear to be a binary thinker I can understand (and empathise, see what I did there ;) ) with how your constrained worldview cannot allow for anything other than the "right vs left" dynamic existing.

Good luck with that reflection chamber you are in though, being a Tory must suck.

@sadpapercourtesan

Yeah, broadly I do think left-wing parties are more moral than right-wing ones. Left-wing thinking tends to centre others/the aggregate, whereas right-wing thinking is, usually quite unabashedly, all about self and the individual.

My father taught me when I was tiny that Tories were people whose parents hadn't taught them to share. I'm now in my late 40s with a degree in history/political theory and an extremely wide-ranging professional background, and I've seen nothing whatsoever that dislodges that principle.

What you say is exactly the problem - people are brought up to believe bigoted things about the otherside. I thought that about Tories, the not sharing thing, when I was young but actually most of them hand on heart believe that more people are better off in a free market and that therefore a free market is more moral. I am not saying that's right or wrong - but to say they vote Tory because they are selfish or don't care just ain't true - they believe that the free market is more moral because fewer people suffer, and many Tories think that left wing economics is immoral because (they believe) its supporters would rather have more people suffer in order to have a go at the super rich - and the suffering is not usually done by the left wing mainly middle class (these day) voter but by those who don't vote at all (till Brexit).

I'm a floating voter. We have friends in both camps. The older I get the more I realise that the left wing ones really are just virtue signallers. And it is the virtue signalling that has got us into this problem with self-id.

I agree with the OP that this is intrinsically a left wing problem, which is why there is so little pushback from left wing politicians. which is not to say that there are not self-id supporters on the right, there are a few, but it is not usually virtue signalling. I don't think Crispin Blunt is a virtue signaller. I just think he wants to centre transwomen over women. Why, who knows, but it is not intrinsic to him being right wing?

I also think there is a social problem in the way the different groups treat others in their group. Our left wing friends tend to think: I do the right thing, my friends all do/say this, I must have good friends, therefore I must do what is popular in my group. - which is no way to thrash out an ethical problem because it means if someone differs then the it is not considered that they might have a valid point but just that they're 'bad' (like you thinking all Tories are selfish just because they think the answer to poverty is different to you) when really it is just the person with the different view is not seeking popularity in the left wing group so effectively. Then they, the left wingers, ostracise the offender.

The right wingers will react with dismay if they don't like your views, call you an expletive laden name and then poor you another drink. They're then up for a knock about debate on the subject, and just occasionally one changes their minds and sometimes they change ours. They do not ostracise you. They do not seek for -phobias, or -isms, in what you say, or you have amoral failing if you don't agree. They do not virtue signal. So they are less prone to fall for identity politics.

We walk a fine line between both groups and have kept most friendships. It is harder with the left wingers though.

most of them hand on heart believe that more people are better off in a free market

free market is how we have ended up with people like Bezos being the richest man in the world while his employees piss in bottles rather then go on toilet breaks and end up dead working thru a tornado.

The problem is those who support rampant capitalism and the free market are the sort who fantasies about being the Bezos and never think they will be the warehouse worker pissing in a bottle, but statistically well......

[quote VelvetChairGirl]*'You asked for it'?
'You deserved it'?
'Look what you made them do'?

Casting a vote for Brexit or supporting UKIP in its quest to leave the EU was absolutely, without doubt, clear grounds for other people to personally abuse & intimidate them?!*

may I remind you of the adverts UKIP posted and the words of farage, here is some.

fubarradio.com/politics/stupidly-offensive-things-nigel-farage-has-said/[/quote]
So, say you've supported leaving the EU for years, since before UKIP even. Many have. And because Farage says something and puts a poster up you're supposed to go, oh sorry now we can't vote leave, despite wanting to leave for 30 years? Madness. Narrow minded madness. And part of the identify politics problems of the left that is keeping them out of power. You did or said X, I don't agree with X, therefore you're bad and I'm ok with people calling you bad things because, well, you're just bad, basically because you're not me. Dear heavens...

Being anti-EU was at one time the normative leftist view.

@SantaClawsServiette

Being anti-EU was at one time the normative leftist view.

Indeed. Tony Benn opposed Britain's entry to the Common Market. Corbyn wasn't a Remainer.

Anti-EU cut across both left and right, authoritarian & libertarian of both too.

Some people for xenophobic reasons, yes - but there's extremist wankers in every group regardless of what that group consists of, or what overarching belief or characteristic they share.
The extremist wankers are not representative of any grouping of people, they're always just a tiny minority fringe.

This is true across all areas & topics of debate or ideology.

I am & have always been a floating voter - pretty central, lean slightly left wrt social policies, slightly right on economic policies & am very much 'live & let live, so long as it's legal and doesn't hurt others'.

I'm friends with people from across the political spectrum - my best friend has voted opposite to me on Brexit (I was a Leave voter), Scottish Independence (I would have been a No voter had I still lived up there), the last GE (I voted Tory, she voted Green). But we align on many other areas 🤷🏻‍♀️
We have some good debates & we've both benefitted from hearing good arguments for the 'other side' on issues we diverge in.

It's healthy to not be tribal.
Blanket-labelling an entire grouping of people as either goodies or baddies is reductive and childish & achieves nothing.

I honestly do believe that most people are pretty reasonable and open minded - the silent majority.
It's a shame that the shouty minority hog the spotlight.
But then this is also why the cries of disbelief & outrage from them are so visceral when things don't go their way - they truly believe that their view is the majority view and cannot comprehend or accept that it is, in reality, not.

I was a leave voter. I voted that way because I felt there was an increasing democratic deficit in Europe. I didn't expect more money or an easy time after we left. I also didn't expect Boris and hoped negotiations would have been undertaken in better faith. But if we had stayed in Europe following a remain vote then that would have had consequences too.

Since

So, say you've supported leaving the EU for years, since before UKIP even. Many have. And because Farage says something and puts a poster up you're supposed to go, oh sorry now we can't vote leave, despite wanting to leave for 30 years? Madness. Narrow minded madness. And part of the identify politics problems of the left that is keeping them out of power. You did or said X, I don't agree with X, therefore you're bad and I'm ok with people calling you bad things because, well, you're just bad, basically because you're not me. Dear heavens...

vote leave was a referendum not UKIP, half of the Tories wanted to leave the EU such as Boris Johnson who made up lies about bendy bananas in his journalism days to help get the anti EU sentiment rolling.

UKIP has never had a single seat in parliament with the exception of an already established Tory minister who defected.

and what do you mean by before UKIP?, they were The Anti-Federalist League before changing their name and were a smaller party then The Referendum Party, by the time UKIP broke thru onto the political scene and was picked up by the MSM it was clear half of the Conservatives supported leaving the EU, the referendum was due to the party splitting not UKIP.

put your football shirt down and stop this nonsense, Farage usurped Sked and steered the party away from a liberal economic stance towards xenophobia.

your proving "lefties" are more moral, you stuck with a party that pushed sexism, xenophobia and elicited ridiculous BNP style shouting about WW2 etc, thoroughly embarrassing us in the EU parliament multiple times, over a single issue, so either you agree with sexism and xenophobia or you turned a blind eye to it over a single issue.

something us "lefties" on mumsnet have repeatedly stated we will not do, we will not vote for parties that disregard womens rights, we will not vote for parties that are racist, sexist etc. we would just not vote at all because we will not turn a blind eye to evil and regressive policies just because they dangle 1 single carrot above the pile of manure.

and what do you mean by before UKIP?

I can't speak for the poster that said this obvs - but my understanding of 'before UKIP' is 'before UKIP became a widely known factor in politics'.

Before UKIP, I had no clue what parties there were who represented anti-EU sentiment or policies.

For me, personally, I became Eurosceptic from the Maastricht Treaty.
Margaret Thatcher made speeches & wrote articles around that time & I remember strongly agreeing with her over John Major & the prevailing Tory govt stance at that time (on this issue).

Since then I opposed the pro-EU policies & treaties agreed to under Blair/Brown and a salient issue for me was the promise of a referendum on the proposed EU Constitution which was then shelved as it 'wasn't an EU Constitution anymore, it was 'just' another treaty' (which Brown then skulked off & signed).

It is entirely plausible that millions of voters were like me; that is, not remotely interested in or knowledgeable of party-political goings on, but very much in favour of a referendum on our continuing EU membership.

put your football shirt down and stop this nonsense

I would suggest that it is actually you who needs to take a step away from the tribal tbh 🤷🏻‍♀️
Anti-EU sentiment cut across all axes of political identity, as do many other current big-topics

@sadpapercourtesan

Yeah, broadly I do think left-wing parties are more moral than right-wing ones. Left-wing thinking tends to centre others/the aggregate, whereas right-wing thinking is, usually quite unabashedly, all about self and the individual.

My father taught me when I was tiny that Tories were people whose parents hadn't taught them to share. I'm now in my late 40s with a degree in history/political theory and an extremely wide-ranging professional background, and I've seen nothing whatsoever that dislodges that principle.

I had a similar upbringing of left-wing indoctrination but my father also said that sometimes you have to vote for a 'conservative' to stop an extremist. I have recently found the latter to be true on several issues: SNP's Neverendum, Corbyn, freedom of speech (always safer with the right), and all the gender ideology nonsense. What's really scary is how morally bankrupt all the UK parties are.

People are aware, aren't they, that Ayn Rand type radical neoliberalism, greed is good, is not actually conservative? Quite the opposite, it's libral, and you can find it is both the LP and CP.

If being an EU skeptic is bad, and being a leftist is good, how is it that leftism has, until economic liberalism took the wheel, tended to be skeptical of the EU?

Maybe it's not actually that simple.

@SantaClawsServiette

People are aware, aren't they, that Ayn Rand type radical neoliberalism, greed is good, is not actually conservative? Quite the opposite, it's libral, and you can find it is both the LP and CP.

If being an EU skeptic is bad, and being a leftist is good, how is it that leftism has, until economic liberalism took the wheel, tended to be skeptical of the EU?

Maybe it's not actually that simple.

Exactly...

The left believe they are more moral yes.
In fact they are convinced of it.
Because they are utopian rather than realists.

But this drive towards a top down imposed utopia can easily become very dangerous and not moral at all.

This gender ideology is part of the insistence that we can create a utopia if only we can force every one to comply.
A utopia which allows everyone to be whatever they want to be.
But a utopia which clashes with the reality of biological sex.
So a utopia which must be enforced and those who will not comply punished and shamed until they do.

Morality does not belong to the left or the right, it exists in a struggle between the rights of individuals and the group, and has to exist within the reality of a material world which acknowledges human nature.

The history of the 20th century history shows the equal ability of the left and right for huge evil.

Given that it amazes me how leftists still cling to the mirage that they're uniquely moral.

And I find the example on here of the indoctrination of a child into believing half their society is immoral, to be quite sickeningly immoral itself.

See the issue: we have to do bad things because the other people are bad, and that makes us good...we know where that can lead.

@BrandySours

and what do you mean by before UKIP?

I can't speak for the poster that said this obvs - but my understanding of 'before UKIP' is 'before UKIP became a widely known factor in politics'.

Before UKIP, I had no clue what parties there were who represented anti-EU sentiment or policies.

For me, personally, I became Eurosceptic from the Maastricht Treaty.
Margaret Thatcher made speeches & wrote articles around that time & I remember strongly agreeing with her over John Major & the prevailing Tory govt stance at that time (on this issue).

Since then I opposed the pro-EU policies & treaties agreed to under Blair/Brown and a salient issue for me was the promise of a referendum on the proposed EU Constitution which was then shelved as it 'wasn't an EU Constitution anymore, it was 'just' another treaty' (which Brown then skulked off & signed).

It is entirely plausible that millions of voters were like me; that is, not remotely interested in or knowledgeable of party-political goings on, but very much in favour of a referendum on our continuing EU membership.

put your football shirt down and stop this nonsense

I would suggest that it is actually you who needs to take a step away from the tribal tbh 🤷🏻‍♀️
Anti-EU sentiment cut across all axes of political identity, as do many other current big-topics

Exactly. Just because people weren't aware of the party does not mean they were not anti-federalist. It has been a snowballing effect for decades since we joined.

@BrandySours

and what do you mean by before UKIP?

I can't speak for the poster that said this obvs - but my understanding of 'before UKIP' is 'before UKIP became a widely known factor in politics'.

Before UKIP, I had no clue what parties there were who represented anti-EU sentiment or policies.

For me, personally, I became Eurosceptic from the Maastricht Treaty.
Margaret Thatcher made speeches & wrote articles around that time & I remember strongly agreeing with her over John Major & the prevailing Tory govt stance at that time (on this issue).

Since then I opposed the pro-EU policies & treaties agreed to under Blair/Brown and a salient issue for me was the promise of a referendum on the proposed EU Constitution which was then shelved as it 'wasn't an EU Constitution anymore, it was 'just' another treaty' (which Brown then skulked off & signed).

It is entirely plausible that millions of voters were like me; that is, not remotely interested in or knowledgeable of party-political goings on, but very much in favour of a referendum on our continuing EU membership.

put your football shirt down and stop this nonsense

I would suggest that it is actually you who needs to take a step away from the tribal tbh 🤷🏻‍♀️
Anti-EU sentiment cut across all axes of political identity, as do many other current big-topics

Thats because the parties that pushed leave EU as their main priority were fringe but there were several.

UKIP started out as a breakaway group from the Libdems the fact it got popular after farage took over shows what it was really about, hardly anyone was actually interested in leaving the EU and the economics of it thats why the parties were so small, what got people joining was when he started appealing to the national front types, using EU as a excuse for pushing xenophobia and emboldening racists.

What?

You know Corbyn was an EU skeptic from way back, right, like many on the left?

It's neither a new thing nor a fringe position, nor something that emerged with UKIP.

It's not a matter of whether it was any parties main priority.

hardly anyone was actually interested in leaving the EU and the economics of it thats why the parties were so small, what got people joining was when he started appealing to the national front types, using EU as a excuse for pushing xenophobia and emboldening racists.

No

People were getting pissed off ANYWAY - he just tapped into that and made UKIP visible

People got pissed off with the EU in far larger numbers than previously because of the decision by Blair to allow unfettered immigration immediately when the EU enlargement happened in the 2000s, rather than delaying or phasing it in as Germany etc did
Then the con trick that Blair/Brown pulled over the promised referendum on EU Constitution sealed the deal for many

Keep on believing that Brexit was a xenophobic endeavour & that Leave voters were all #FarageFans all you want - it doesn't make it true though 🤷🏻‍♀️

YY to the previous poster.

I voted to leave the EU for a range of reasons which have probably never crossed that posters mind.

I am young enough that I expect to live through the beginnings of the Climate Crisis. One of the main reasons I voted was environmental. We are over the carrying capacity of the UK to feed ourselves, let alone conserve nature. I always believed that if the shit hit it would be every country for themselves. The pandemic proved to be a small unexpected taster with all the drama over the vaccines and trying to ban companies from exporting them to us.

Hardly anyone has probably ever heard that viewpoint. Because its not from Farage, the media or anyone. Its from my own understanding of where we are as a country and a globe. Something which I think is going to be the thing in 20 years time everyone turns around and goes oh shit why did we not consider that?!

@BrandySours

hardly anyone was actually interested in leaving the EU and the economics of it thats why the parties were so small, what got people joining was when he started appealing to the national front types, using EU as a excuse for pushing xenophobia and emboldening racists.

No

People were getting pissed off ANYWAY - he just tapped into that and made UKIP visible

People got pissed off with the EU in far larger numbers than previously because of the decision by Blair to allow unfettered immigration immediately when the EU enlargement happened in the 2000s, rather than delaying or phasing it in as Germany etc did
Then the con trick that Blair/Brown pulled over the promised referendum on EU Constitution sealed the deal for many

Keep on believing that Brexit was a xenophobic endeavour & that Leave voters were all #FarageFans all you want - it doesn't make it true though 🤷🏻‍♀️

I completely agree that Farage just made UKIP visible. But there were many small groups (like the metric martyrs for example, or groups wanting to save the £) that were anti-EU once it moved away from just trade into meddling in lives and red tape - this was happening in the 20 years between us joining and free movement. In addition there have always been a small number of Labour MPs/ Labour members and a greater number of conservative MPs and members that were anti-EU. Then there was the pressure for us to take on the Euro which many people thought was wrong, especially after Black Wednesday and debacle of us trying to stick with the exchange rate mechanism in 1992, and this unease was made much more concrete after the debacle with the Greek economy and the Eurozone crisis.

In the end Farage and the reinvigorated UKIP was the symptom of wide unease, not the cause.

Brexit happened because northern labour voters supported it.
The London labour party didn't represent them.

And that's why Boris got a majority as well.

If nothing else that should tell you how this left/ right good/bad divide is a load of nonsense which doesn't cover any nuance in human nature or behaviour.

The left has always been based on identity politics of economy groups but that's been abandoned by the labour party for newer identity politics leaving the traditional voters alienated.

Fascism is identity politics of nations often but not always with a right wing conservatism.

All are potentially evil when they become ideological and believe they are so right or good their actions are justified.

The briefest view of 20th century history shows that neither the right or the left have a claim on morality, and if you think they do you're dangerous.