Do people see centre left parties as more moral?

[ukipperMN]

Hi,

I’m an ex-UKIP member who hasn’t been active in politics since we got brexit done, if I were to join another party and become active in politics again I’d likely join Richard Tice’s Reform Party or possibly the heritage party but I’ve no plans to join either at the moment or become politically active again.

I am watching the debate on self ID with interest but am not playing a part in it, just watching things unfold with interest and had some questions and wanted to hear people’s thoughts.

What I really don’t understand is why so many of the people so against self ID seem to want to only vote for parties that want self ID (lab/Lib/PC/SNP/Green etc). It’s not an accident that all major centre left parties support self ID, self ID is entirely consistent and compatible with the centre left’s ideology/world view. I also read somewhere (don’t know if it’s true) that women are more likely to vote for centre left parties than men are. In fact if only women voted I think we might have a Labour government and self ID would likely be law by now.

I wondered why this is and thought I would put my head above the parapet and ask. Do people (and feminists in particular) tend to see the centre left as the more moral position, the kinder, gentler more compassionate opinion to vote for?

I expect self ID will become law in the U.K. eventually and I think it is likely to become law in Scotland in the next year or so. And I think many feminists opposed to self ID will likely vote for the parties that make it law and vote for them again after it becomes law.

I’ve seen polls where certain policies poll very well but once people find out whose policies they are they go off the policy and say they will never vote for the party proposing the policy regardless. Likewise unpopular policies can become supported if the party proposing them is viewed favourably. It seems to be a moral perception where people see some parties are morally better than others. Would posters agree with that observation?

This is why I think self ID will become law regardless of how popular it is now. People see the parties committed to it as good and will eventually elect them regardless of what they promise to do.

Self Id seems to me to centre right/ individualism

I wondered that then decided not. I would say that was 'old-style' transsexuals 'I will dress as a woman and blend in. New self ID goes much further than that - it imposes obligations on the rest of society to keep up the fantasy. Placing obligations on society to act together is left wing.

What this issue has really taught us is that Right, Left, Centre, whatever.....no one really gives a fuck about women.

It's so depressing.

Individualism does affect the rest of society

My right to choose my response to covid Id classic example - your right to chose affects what others can do ?

@Omicrone

What this issue has really taught us is that Right, Left, Centre, whatever.....no one really gives a fuck about women.

It's so depressing.

This basically

Individualism affects the rest of society but doesn't place obligations on them.

So individualism would be 'I declare myself a women' and everyone else can say fine but we see you as a man and will treat you as such.

New self ID goes much further than that - it imposes obligations on the rest of society to keep up the fantasy. Placing obligations on society to act together is left wing.

Obligations on society, yes. Assuming you are more important than others and their needs are unimportant, not so much.

I don’t see that self-ID really fits into either left or right. I think most people see it’s morally wrong when they actually examine what’s being demanded. It’s not very long ago that all the main parties were fully behind it. As Omicrone says, nobody bothered to consider women, which is very depressing indeed.

Utter nonsense, what does a voter of the far right know about the people in the centre left?
Following your logic, what does a voter of the centre left know about the people of the far right? And yet, centre leftists seem to make all sorts of comments about people on the right. Maybe it's possible to know and understand people across the whole political spectrum. I certainly have lots of friends with widely differing political views and I understand them, even if I don't agree with them. I also have dear friends who are right wing and they treat people as individuals and are respectful to all. I think it's you that are too hung up with labels.

Well I don’t entirely know why the centre left are seen as good and morally superior to the centre right, it’s just my observation that many people do seem (to me at least) to think that they are.
People generally think of the NHS and welfare state as being good things; because the bottom line is housing disabled people and treating them medically from shared taxation is moral, while leaving them to die on the street is immoral.

Do people (and feminists in particular) tend to see the centre left as the more moral position, the kinder, gentler more compassionate opinion to vote for?
No. What does kindness have to do with building a society thats fit for humans to live in?

Self ID is a neoliberal policy that promotes the absolute right of the individual over those of others.
Right and Left support self ID for different reasons, the outcome is the same for us regardles of who supports it which is why so many people think that right and left are becoming irrelevant. Right and Left wing parties are both subscribing to individualistic, neoliberal policies, which is why they are beginning to resemble each other.

The Conservatives introduced Self ID to the UK and have either enabled it or turned a blind eye. The effects have been extremely unkind for women. It is becoming increasingly apparent that they support self ID because it eradicates womens rights.

The Conservatives introduced Self ID to the UK

I disagree - Self ID is what the GRA allows. The fact that it involved a medical diagnosis does not change the fact it is ultimately creating a falsehood based on someone's perception of themselves. This was Labour.

Agree the Conservatives have not stepped up to protect women, or the law though.

@Omicrone

What this issue has really taught us is that Right, Left, Centre, whatever.....no one really gives a fuck about women.

It's so depressing.

This bears repeating. Often and loudly.

Changed my username for this...

This thread is very revealing!

It seems obvious to me that self ID is connected with centre left/progressive ideas and progressive thinking. It’s an idea that is mostly advocated by those on the left of the political spectrum. It’s not just the in U.K. either. Pick a western democracy where self ID is being debated and considered and the proponents of it will likely be on the liberal/left/progressive side of that country’s political spectrum.

Or ignore politics altogether and consider the views of the media. In the U.K. the Daily Mail, the Telegraph, the Murdoch Press (Fox News in the United States) etc all take very different points of view to that of the guardian or the BBC.

I would personally describe myself as conservative politically, but just from reading this thread alone I think this is a debate that the left/progressives side of politics will win and that self ID will become law as a result.

I don’t consider the left as morally bad and I certainly don’t consider conservatives to be in anyway morally superior, like most conservatives I think the left is just more idealistic than realistic and for that reason I usually find myself in disagreement with them. But it’s clear to me that many feminists couldn’t bring themselves to vote for the right wing parties opposed to self ID and if the people most opposed to self ID can’t bring themselves to vote for the parties most opposed to self ID I can’t see how they can win this debate.

@madisonbridges

Utter nonsense, what does a voter of the far right know about the people in the centre left? Following your logic, what does a voter of the centre left know about the people of the far right? And yet, centre leftists seem to make all sorts of comments about people on the right. Maybe it's possible to know and understand people across the whole political spectrum. I certainly have lots of friends with widely differing political views and I understand them, even if I don't agree with them. I also have dear friends who are right wing and they treat people as individuals and are respectful to all. I think it's you that are too hung up with labels.

It is totally possible to understand others... if you have empathy and compassion.

Things lacking in the voters who trend far right, as evidenced by the posts and behaviours of those voters and the politican'ts they vote in.

Simple really, it is just about human behaviour.

@Mybrandnewname

Changed my username for this...

This thread is very revealing!

It seems obvious to me that self ID is connected with centre left/progressive ideas and progressive thinking. It’s an idea that is mostly advocated by those on the left of the political spectrum. It’s not just the in U.K. either. Pick a western democracy where self ID is being debated and considered and the proponents of it will likely be on the liberal/left/progressive side of that country’s political spectrum.

Or ignore politics altogether and consider the views of the media. In the U.K. the Daily Mail, the Telegraph, the Murdoch Press (Fox News in the United States) etc all take very different points of view to that of the guardian or the BBC.

I would personally describe myself as conservative politically, but just from reading this thread alone I think this is a debate that the left/progressives side of politics will win and that self ID will become law as a result.

I don’t consider the left as morally bad and I certainly don’t consider conservatives to be in anyway morally superior, like most conservatives I think the left is just more idealistic than realistic and for that reason I usually find myself in disagreement with them. But it’s clear to me that many feminists couldn’t bring themselves to vote for the right wing parties opposed to self ID and if the people most opposed to self ID can’t bring themselves to vote for the parties most opposed to self ID I can’t see how they can win this debate.

"It seems obvious to me that self ID is connected with centre left/progressive ideas and progressive thinking."

Except it was the conservatives who made it a part of UK policy...

I suppose the tories are left wing now huh?

@atee

You will find far more resistance to self ID in the Conservative party than you will in the Labour Party but neither party is a monolith. But I suspect you already knew that?

In my experience if you move to the right of the conservative party then you find even less support still. I imagine there will be even less support for self ID in reform U.K. for example than there will be the conservatives. Do you disagree?

Or ignore politics altogether and consider the views of the media. In the U.K. the Daily Mail, the Telegraph, the Murdoch Press (Fox News in the United States) etc all take very different points of view to that of the guardian or the BBC.

Interesting thing about the BBC is when the powers that be realised that they had been totally captured by Stonewall and were not being impartial on the trans issue at all, their reporting on the issue changed significantly.

Yes left wingers do believe they are more moral and superior to others.

I used to be involved in the Labour Party. Some of the people I met were truly wonderful. Others were snobbish and thought so highly of themselves and so badly of those who didn't agree with them politically. Somehow voting left, or proclaiming to, made them a good person..

I won't be going back, partly due to the self ID and related issue.

Thanks for getting ‘Brexit done’ it’s working out just grand!

A huge number of UK women vote Conservative. Also Brexit is an excellent idea and self-ID is more likely to happen by remaining in the EU. Left wing parties tend to support the EU - left-wing parties tend to central authorityism, something of which, as a left-winger I am myself guilty.

New self ID goes much further than that - it imposes obligations on the rest of society to keep up the fantasy. Placing obligations on society to act together is left wing.

It's also right wing. The classical liberal - as opposed to progressive liberal - tradition is only one of many strands on the right (and is also a strand on the left). Self ID isn't "naturally" left wing. It's just an absurd belief, founded on a refusal to actually think, which has swept through the left in much the same way as Q Anon swept through so much of the right in USA. Or Brexit, here, where so many people still, nearly 6 years after the vote, don't really have a coherent idea of what it means.

There are people who absolutely see center left parties as the only moral choice, and right parties as fundamentally immoral.

I would say in most cases when you dig down, they tend to have a few ideas they see as central to right parties. One is radical capitalist neoliberalism/Chicago school economics. Basically the invisible hand of the market, greed is good, profit is the driving motive of capitalism and capitalism is the structure of our society and fundamentally even should shape what government and social services look like.

The other is they tend to see it as quite deliberately existing to enrich the 1% and actually the .01%, the corporate giants and people like Bezos or Gates.

So, maybe no wonder they think that's evil, and in the UK and US among others that element dominated center right parties for some time.

They tend on the other hand to be a little naive about the extent to which that view also dominates elements of center left parties and also the nature of authoritarian identarian statism in those same parties.

The underlying issue IMO is there are no parties offering more traditional communitarian leftism of the kind that was once more common in the UK, nor traditional conservatism nor was also more common, and there hasn't been in the memory of most voters now. And in the US those were never dominant.

There are also a lot of threads in gender ideology.

Progressivism is a big one, and it's mainly something that has been embraced by the left in western democracies.

There is also the underhanded desire to justify neoliberal economics on the left by adopting identity politics. It's important to notice that left parties today don't actually really challenge global capitalism and have plenty of corporate donors.

There's neomarxism which is all about identity and is found on the left and tends to authoritarian and collectivist, but anti-communitarian and anti-family.

Identity politics is the opposite of socialism. Although self-ID is promoted by parties that were once traditionally leftwing or centre-left, they have long ago forgotten their leftwing roots.

[quote Mybrandnewname]@atee

You will find far more resistance to self ID in the Conservative party than you will in the Labour Party but neither party is a monolith. But I suspect you already knew that?

In my experience if you move to the right of the conservative party then you find even less support still. I imagine there will be even less support for self ID in reform U.K. for example than there will be the conservatives. Do you disagree?[/quote]
I suspect as you move further right they are all for restrictive gender roles, the elimination of homosexuals, the labeling of people by group affiliation and the control of peoples thoughts and speech.

The tactics of the right and the tactics of the TRA's are the same.

Because they all belong to the authoritarian area of the political graph, some say right wing stuff, some say left wing stuff, but all of the control types are authoritarians, and therefore ideologically closer to the right than the left, since the left should be about treating people as individuals and decently.

Unlike the right wing view... And the TRA view.

Arguement styles like assuming bad faith, personal attacks, group denigration and rape/death threats are firmly on the right, even if uttered by people who pretend they are left wing.

Next you will tell me the Chinese Capitalist Party is communist... if so there is a bridge I would like to sell you! It's going for a bargain...

Reading with intrigue