Do people see centre left parties as more moral?

[ukipperMN]

Hi,

I’m an ex-UKIP member who hasn’t been active in politics since we got brexit done, if I were to join another party and become active in politics again I’d likely join Richard Tice’s Reform Party or possibly the heritage party but I’ve no plans to join either at the moment or become politically active again.

I am watching the debate on self ID with interest but am not playing a part in it, just watching things unfold with interest and had some questions and wanted to hear people’s thoughts.

What I really don’t understand is why so many of the people so against self ID seem to want to only vote for parties that want self ID (lab/Lib/PC/SNP/Green etc). It’s not an accident that all major centre left parties support self ID, self ID is entirely consistent and compatible with the centre left’s ideology/world view. I also read somewhere (don’t know if it’s true) that women are more likely to vote for centre left parties than men are. In fact if only women voted I think we might have a Labour government and self ID would likely be law by now.

I wondered why this is and thought I would put my head above the parapet and ask. Do people (and feminists in particular) tend to see the centre left as the more moral position, the kinder, gentler more compassionate opinion to vote for?

I expect self ID will become law in the U.K. eventually and I think it is likely to become law in Scotland in the next year or so. And I think many feminists opposed to self ID will likely vote for the parties that make it law and vote for them again after it becomes law.

I’ve seen polls where certain policies poll very well but once people find out whose policies they are they go off the policy and say they will never vote for the party proposing the policy regardless. Likewise unpopular policies can become supported if the party proposing them is viewed favourably. It seems to be a moral perception where people see some parties are morally better than others. Would posters agree with that observation?

This is why I think self ID will become law regardless of how popular it is now. People see the parties committed to it as good and will eventually elect them regardless of what they promise to do.

@Thelnebriati

Well I don’t entirely know why the centre left are seen as good and morally superior to the centre right, it’s just my observation that many people do seem (to me at least) to think that they are. People generally think of the NHS and welfare state as being good things; because the bottom line is housing disabled people and treating them medically from shared taxation is moral, while leaving them to die on the street is immoral.

Do people (and feminists in particular) tend to see the centre left as the more moral position, the kinder, gentler more compassionate opinion to vote for?
No. What does kindness have to do with building a society thats fit for humans to live in?

Self ID is a neoliberal policy that promotes the absolute right of the individual over those of others.
Right and Left support self ID for different reasons, the outcome is the same for us regardles of who supports it which is why so many people think that right and left are becoming irrelevant. Right and Left wing parties are both subscribing to individualistic, neoliberal policies, which is why they are beginning to resemble each other.

The Conservatives introduced Self ID to the UK and have either enabled it or turned a blind eye. The effects have been extremely unkind for women. It is becoming increasingly apparent that they support self ID because it eradicates womens rights.

The Conservatives did not introduce self ID. They made vague noises about reforming the GRA and dropped it. Labour, Green, Lib Dems and SNP have embraced it whole- heartedly.

Actual reform of the GRA is a top priority for the very left wing SNP.

Well because I’m a socialist who believes the current hardline gender ideology is not good for women, gay people or for vulnerable young people either. Like most people I hold a views that don’t ‘fit’ totally to one party. I’d like to see more support for stay at home parents through career breaks with return to your role rights for 2-3 years (for larger employers) for example rather than childcare as the only family friendly policy. That’s generally a more conservative policy. But overall I want much higher local government, education, welfare, and NHS spending more than I want anything else. So I will vote Labour.

I am a swing voter - mid left on the quadrant but first and foremost a libertarian.

At the moment the left parties are all authoritarian to me. So for a while now I have had to vote right.

The quadrants on party analysis seem to recognise UK left parties as more libertarian and torys as more authoritarian - but for me they aren't. Anyone who shuts down other opinions as uneducated, bigoted etc etc. are authoritarian to me; and I appreciate thats a feeling rather than a policy which is maybe why its not recognised.

It is totally possible to understand others... if you have empathy and compassion.

Things lacking in the voters who trend far right, as evidenced by the posts and behaviours of those voters and the politican'ts they vote in.

Simple really, it is just about human behaviour.

To believe that no one outside the left has any empathy or compassion demonstrates that you have absolutely no knowledge of human behaviour. I doubt you ever will when you're happy just living in an echo chamber.

Nd by the way, the left voted in TB. Did he bomb Iraq to smithereens and destabilise the ME out of compassion and empathy?

There is a measured correlation between empathy and left wing tendencies

I think the very far right in particular dies tend to lack it

You can't ever say all - many times the difference between left and right wing is less about wanting to fix a problem snd more about the best way to do that

"The Conservatives did not introduce self ID. They made vague noises about reforming the GRA and dropped it."

Nice re-write of history, there!
You do realise that, with the internet, it's perfectly possible to go back and see Theresa May speaking at the Pink News awards and Conservative ministers embracing No Debate. Penny Mordaunt's ill-fated "webchat" is still on these boards.
I can remember when David Davies was seen as the only MP who would even discuss concerns and the flack he got for allowing a meeting in the House of Commons.
"Vague noises" indeed!

The mess is because of the GRA. Labour introduced the GRA so they 'started it'.

I think left-wing parties and their hardcore supporters certainly think they are. They demonstrate this when they are loudly remonstrating working class people for being thick, ignorant racists for not voting for them, when they ignore grooming gangs, when they say freedom of speech is a "right wing" issue only, when they want to exclude anyone who doesn't agree with them 200% on absolutely everything,
and when they say that male sex offenders should be put in women's prisons. Oh yes.

Yes. It's no coincidence there are the Republican Jesus memes.

Sorry, you think the presence of memes is evidence of something? Do cats actually eat cheeseburgers, then?

We need to get past these simplistic definitions. It's not doing political discourse any favours.

They have long ago forgotten their leftwing roots.

Yes I think that's the real issue.

Anyway, to answer OP's question: Inused to, but not any more. Yes I've probably changed a bit, but I think The Left has changed quite a bit too.

I'm a centrist and a swing voter. Part of the reason why I swing from one party to another is because I value change - I think there is harm in one party being in power too long regardless of who they are. They start to feel unaccountable and corruption seeps in. Policies they put in place are not reexamined to see if they are working as 'we put them in place so they must be right' and biases are embeded. Representatives are chosen by parties for reasons other than to represent the voters (if they will be voted in regardless why worry what the voters think).

Just look at the SNP to see the problems with lack of change, or labour groups in places like Liverpool, or Crispin Blunt.

Time out of power should be a time to reflect and listen to all the voters. Labour seem to have decided it is time to bunker down.

The argument that women are more likely to vote left was one of the arguments used against women's suffrage.

Henry Asquith (Liberal leader and Prime Minister) opposed women's suffrage at least partly on the grounds that women would vote Conservative.

And indeed women were consistently more likely to vote Conservative than men until about 2010. Some data and analysis here:

ukandeu.ac.uk/gender-gaps-in-the-2019-general-election/

In Scotland the SNP have lowered the voting age and direct the school curriculum to induct their ideologies in children.

@Tanith

"The Conservatives did not introduce self ID. They made vague noises about reforming the GRA and dropped it."

Nice re-write of history, there!
You do realise that, with the internet, it's perfectly possible to go back and see Theresa May speaking at the Pink News awards and Conservative ministers embracing No Debate. Penny Mordaunt's ill-fated "webchat" is still on these boards.
I can remember when David Davies was seen as the only MP who would even discuss concerns and the flack he got for allowing a meeting in the House of Commons.
"Vague noises" indeed!

Still dropped it. And it's still the lefty parties charging on. Theresa May and Penny Mordaunt are history. Sturgeon isn't.

@Lovelyricepudding

The mess is because of the GRA. Labour introduced the GRA so they 'started it'.

Indeed. And didn't a ( nasty scary) right wing man (possibly Norman Tebbit?) put forward arguments against it which look very similar to "gender critical" views?

I'm amused at the arguments on here trying to distance the left from this when it is so clearly the left which is pushing it.

The Left isn't in power now, and several people have said 'Right and left support self ID for different reasons'.

@Lovelyricepudding

I'm a centrist and a swing voter. Part of the reason why I swing from one party to another is because I value change - I think there is harm in one party being in power too long regardless of who they are. They start to feel unaccountable and corruption seeps in. Policies they put in place are not reexamined to see if they are working as 'we put them in place so they must be right' and biases are embeded. Representatives are chosen by parties for reasons other than to represent the voters (if they will be voted in regardless why worry what the voters think).

Just look at the SNP to see the problems with lack of change, or labour groups in places like Liverpool, or Crispin Blunt.

Time out of power should be a time to reflect and listen to all the voters. Labour seem to have decided it is time to bunker down.

This is spot on.

To answer the OP- I do. I thought DC might have been a bit more human because of family circumstances, but that was sadly not the case.

@Thelnebriati

The Left isn't in power now, and several people have said 'Right and left support self ID for different reasons'.

The left is in power in Scotland.

Are you claiming there is as much support for self ID from right wing politicians as left wing?

Are you really trying to claim there isnt? The Left is not in power in England, and isnt doing much of a job in opposition either.

@Thelnebriati

Are you really trying to claim there isnt? The Left is not in power in England, and isnt doing much of a job in opposition either.

Who are the right wing pushing this with the determination of the left - whether in Parliament or not?

Its been discussed so often on this board you can go and do your own research. Start with the Penny Mordaunt webchat and the threads about Maria Miller and PSHE, which was originally supposed to tackle male sexual violence against girls in schools but was immediatly co-opted.

@Thelnebriati

Its been discussed so often on this board you can go and do your own research. Start with the Penny Mordaunt webchat and the threads about Maria Miller and PSHE, which was originally supposed to tackle male sexual violence against girls in schools but was immediatly co-opted.

Has it? I don't recall seeing any one from the right promoting this with the vigour of Keir Starmer and pals, the Greens , the Lib Dems or Sturgeon and pals.

You keep referring to past Tory ministers yet ignore Liz Truss.

Why are you so desperate to pretend this is not being pushed by the left?

It's a bit like the defence of Communism where apologists try to defend the real- life disasters Communism has caused by claiming "but they aren't real communists"

The Left isn't in power now

Well they don't have government power (at least not at the UK level), but most of the movement we have seen towards self-ID has not been driven by the government. It's been driven by activist groups and NGOs like Stonewall, Mermaids, etc. It's the "soft power" held by those groups that is driving the agenda.

On the trans issue, politicians (both on the left and right) are mostly following, nor leading. Debating which government the changes happened under is moot.

I agree with NotDavidTennant re the driving forces.

A left wing government is in power in Scotland.

Here's a report on one of its recent achievements.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/019b25a6-7a3e-11ec-9998-b2483743c25e?shareToken=cd6081f3c8b24a33a86ec80f032e5467

It's the "soft power" held by those groups that is driving the agenda.

This. It's thoroughly embedded in many Universities, for example.