Where are all the middle aged women who should be transitioning

[IcakethereforeIam]

I'm new here, I'm sorry if this has been covered or if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

I don't understand the apparent lack of curiosity in some quarters at the massive increase in girls wanting to transition. I went to school in the 80s, while my friends and I knew vaguely about sex change it was not something we thought about applying to ourselves. Perhaps we just kept it inside.

Advocates for allowing children to transition (affirmation only? ), think they don't grow out of the desire. Others say over 80% desist (watchful waiting?). I believe the first cohort believe the uptick is down to an increase in awareness of the possibility of treatment. Surely, if that is correct, there should be hundreds or thousands of closeted women around my age wanting to change their sex. Where are they? Has anyone looked for them?

If they aren't there, then why the disconnect.

Excellent question. I'd love to hear a sensible answer

Add to that, where are all the baby butch lesbians?

Is the absence of one group linked to the disappearance of the other?

Excellent question, which I've also never seen an answer to.

I am a middle aged woman with short hair, no make up and I wear trousers pretty much all the time. Gender ideology suggests I have transitioned. I just never noticed.

I actually feel desperately sorry for girls/younger women today who feel that if they do not conform to exaggerated norms of femininity (big hair on your head, no hair on body, big lips, painted nails, hour glass shape figure,skimpy clothes etc.) they can no longer consider themselves female so decide to transition.

You're not going to get a sensible or unbiased answer here I'm afraid - Enjoy the manufactured echo chamber.

Have you got an answer though, @Lubeyboobyalt?

We really don't want an echo chamber here, please do join in if you have some insights to share.

@Lubeyboobyalt

You're not going to get a sensible or unbiased answer here I'm afraid - Enjoy the manufactured echo chamber.

Oh- now it's "manufactured" as well!

@Lubeyboobyalt I'm also really keen to hear another viewpoint on this - as it could be seen as such a big 'slam dunk' for the GC view if left unanswered .

@Lubeyboobyalt, this is a magnificent opportunity for you - please do answer the OP's excellent question. Where are all the middle-aged transmen? We are told over and over that transwomen knew from an early age that they were trans but for various reasons they were unable or unwilling to transition until they'd married, had children and reached a good point in their careers. Why are there so few transmen over the age of 30?

It's just they pass so well we never noticed

@Lubeyboobyalt you have the floor. Explain to the OP why it’s the case - I mean surely you would relish the opportunity to put all us terrible women in our “manufactured echo chamber” in our place right?

There was a thread about this a few years ago - I've had a quick search but haven't found it yet

IIRC we discussed about caring responsibilities of middle aged women to both children and elderly parents which meant there was less self obsession and that in middle aged men certain fetishes come to the fore (can't name or I'll be deleted) after they have used their male privilege to progress in careers. I seem to remember Stephen Whittle had something to say about it, too.

Added to that was the increase in porn accessibility causing girls to be objectified as their bodies start to mature now, much worse than when I was a teenager last century, leading to girls wanting to remove themselves from that culture.

But yes, given the huge rise in girls wanting to opt out of womanhood now, you'd think - seeing as we're always told how trans people have always been in our communities in large numbers and that trans visibility and acceptance is growing - that those women who were trans as girls but didn't act on it would do so now.

What I have noticed, though, is an increase in the number of middle aged friends leaving their heterosexual relationships and having same sex relationships. Perhaps that has something to do with the disparity - the young girls who would have grown up to be lesbian or bisexual are transing that away instead of embracing it as adults?

Excellent question OP.

We're friends with a couple of middle aged lesbians and went to their wedding, got to know their friends a little bit, seemed like a real community. But nowhere near close enough to ask them their opinion on personal questions like this.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a3188264-Am-I-alone-in-wondering-where-the-WOMEN-wanting-to-trans-are?msgid=76252354#76252354

From 2018!

In the lesbian circles I know of, there have been a sizeable number or transitioners, of varying degrees - butch women adopting they/them pronouns, butch women having breasts removed, butch women taking testosterone microdoses, butch women declaring themselves to be trans men. All still same-sex attracted. I know of no straight middle aged feminine presenting straight women who have come out as trans gay men. Almost like it’s a completely different phenomenon to that happening in older men. Much more aligned to what is happening for young women - avoidance of critical male gaze, internalised homophobia, issues with body image.

This is a highly pertinent question, OP, because it goes to the heart of what 'trans' is, and points to the reality that 'trans' is a political label rather than a coherent psychological phenomenon that manifests in the same ways across age and sex categories.

In other words, the label 'trans' is being used as a catch-all for what are in fact very different etiologies among distinct populations that have little in common beyond the political goal of wishing to see 'gender identity' triumph over sex.

It is glaringly obvious that all those middle-aged heterosexual men who come out as trans after years of marriage and fathering children have few counterparts among women. Meanwhile, the exploding 'trans man' population is mostly under 25, with teens massively overrepresented in this already youthful cohort.

And yet, this goes unnoticed and unremarked by almost everybody. GC feminists themselves almost never bring it up during media appearances or articles. It is a phenomenon that is truly hiding in plain sight.

Perhaps we should be talking less about 'trans' in general, and more about the manifest differences between the groups of people who are claiming transgender status.

My partner is transitioning, he is 31 and was a 'boyish' lesbian as a teen. He hates standing out and would never make a big fuss, he is just quietly getting on with living as the guy he always felt he is.

I also have a teen daughter, it seems amongst her friendship group there are very few "cis-het" teens, it's almost abnormal to not have some kind of minority label. They all use They Them pronouns and it seems just the latest cool thing to be or do. They are 14 years old and declaring themselves Trans, Non-Binary, Asexual, Aromantic, Polyamorous ..... the list goes on - half the stuff I never even heard of, it's just this generations way of rebelling it seems.

Perhaps we should be talking less about 'trans' in general, and more about the manifest differences between the groups of people who are claiming transgender status.

Agree, @DonkeySkin.

The motivations and behaviour and consequences of their individual choice on other members of society's rights are very different between the two groups.

I worry a lot about this need to have a label and to put it all over social media.

Maybe they are but transitioning but just 'get on with it' without needing to broadcast it on social media? Or maybe it's that women have caring responsibilities and/or careers and just don't have the time.

He'll - I haven't had the time to brush my hair today, let alone sit and navel gaze over whether my inner gender matches the sex that I was born as or whatever it is . Someone's got to get the hoovering done, the online shop ordered, the professional job prepped for and the children's dentist appointments sorted.

Because by the time you hit middle age you've been hit by every stupid label in the book and you've realised how pointless /damaging most of them are.

@DonkeySkin

This is a highly pertinent question, OP, because it goes to the heart of what 'trans' is, and points to the reality that 'trans' is a political label rather than a coherent psychological phenomenon that manifests in the same ways across age and sex categories.

In other words, the label 'trans' is being used as a catch-all for what are in fact very different etiologies among distinct populations that have little in common beyond the political goal of wishing to see 'gender identity' triumph over sex.

It is glaringly obvious that all those middle-aged heterosexual men who come out as trans after years of marriage and fathering children have few counterparts among women. Meanwhile, the exploding 'trans man' population is mostly under 25, with teens massively overrepresented in this already youthful cohort.

And yet, this goes unnoticed and unremarked by almost everybody. GC feminists themselves almost never bring it up during media appearances or articles. It is a phenomenon that is truly hiding in plain sight.

Perhaps we should be talking less about 'trans' in general, and more about the manifest differences between the groups of people who are claiming transgender status.

Interesting post and well explained.

@DonkeySkin

This is a highly pertinent question, OP, because it goes to the heart of what 'trans' is, and points to the reality that 'trans' is a political label rather than a coherent psychological phenomenon that manifests in the same ways across age and sex categories.

In other words, the label 'trans' is being used as a catch-all for what are in fact very different etiologies among distinct populations that have little in common beyond the political goal of wishing to see 'gender identity' triumph over sex.

It is glaringly obvious that all those middle-aged heterosexual men who come out as trans after years of marriage and fathering children have few counterparts among women. Meanwhile, the exploding 'trans man' population is mostly under 25, with teens massively overrepresented in this already youthful cohort.

And yet, this goes unnoticed and unremarked by almost everybody. GC feminists themselves almost never bring it up during media appearances or articles. It is a phenomenon that is truly hiding in plain sight.

Perhaps we should be talking less about 'trans' in general, and more about the manifest differences between the groups of people who are claiming transgender status.

Excellent post. And yes, we really should be talking more about the deliberate targeting of children and teenagers by this middle aged male led movement. The damage that they're being allowed to do to a vulnerable cohort of children is unbelievable.

I think it's a very interesting question OP. Particularly when you consider the effects of the menopause. Surely if there were a host of middle aged women who came of age in the 80s and have always been trans but not (for many reasons) come out as such, then surely now would be the time that they would all become visible. There's more discussion about all things trans than ever before and as they go through the menopause these women will be experiencing a natural reduction in the female hormones and finding it harder to keep up an appearance that society tells us is 'feminine'.

I like all the responses particularly Donkeyskin and Flingingmelons. I tend to think gender is essentially meaningless, just a label for a grab bag of stuff, that constantly changes, whirls around every individual. Are there push and pull factors, like for refugees and migrants? Gender migrant anyone? It seems uncontroversial that they'd be different for a teenager and 50yo woman. I wish someone would do a study.

The person who made the echo chamber comment, I imagine that can be a fair criticism. Please don't just do a drive by, I would love to read your opinion too.

I think the question is more why the explosion in number of girls and young women rather than why the absence of middle aged women.

And this is very much being talked about. Kathleen Stock mentions it in the talk here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4456128-k-stock-on-bbc-world-service

Also, good info here

www.statsforgender.org/females/