Where are all the middle aged women who should be transitioning

[IcakethereforeIam]

I'm new here, I'm sorry if this has been covered or if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

I don't understand the apparent lack of curiosity in some quarters at the massive increase in girls wanting to transition. I went to school in the 80s, while my friends and I knew vaguely about sex change it was not something we thought about applying to ourselves. Perhaps we just kept it inside.

Advocates for allowing children to transition (affirmation only? ), think they don't grow out of the desire. Others say over 80% desist (watchful waiting?). I believe the first cohort believe the uptick is down to an increase in awareness of the possibility of treatment. Surely, if that is correct, there should be hundreds or thousands of closeted women around my age wanting to change their sex. Where are they? Has anyone looked for them?

If they aren't there, then why the disconnect.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Colour me shocked that a 4000 increase in girls wanting to transition is hand waved away to centre boys - the male of the species is always the important one amirite

And yes what OldCrone asks

I spotted that too

@OldCrone

Girls do now outnumber boys but I expect this is more down to the increased social and media hostility aimed at trans women. Imagine being a trans teenager seeing trans women constantly portrayed as predators, fetishists or misogynists - would you come out of the closet in that environment?

Where do you live? In a parallel universe?

We have the Scottish Government which can't wait to reform the GRA.

Here is a thread of Labour MPs falling over themselves to dismantle women's rights to give trans-identifying males everything they ask for:
twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1442783041395564549

And here's a bit of ITV propaganda touting for Mermaids:
www.itv.com/hub/butterfly/2a5387a0001

So much hostility.

What a ridiculous comment, like someone pretending homophobia didn't exist in the 80s because there were some bodies and cultural institutions pushing for progressive change. Or claiming racism no longer exists because big corporates pretend to love diversity. I've rarely heard such nonsense. I presume you are white, non-transgendered and straight.

Can you post links to some of the hostility in the media barley?

@RussiasGreatestLoveMachine

I just answered you, they came out younger so never got that far.

I don’t understand. Can you please explain.

Probably not, it was very simple, if you don't understand it then perhaps the problem lies with you.

Abigail Shier's book " Irreversable Damage " is a good read for those wondering why so many teenage girls are going down the transgender route

@OldCrone

Can you post links to some of the hostility in the media barley?

The hostility primarily takes place in the streets and classrooms. Why not talk to a gender diverse kid, or even someone with experience of homophobia, they come from pretty much the same place a lot of the time and both are big problems in society.

Of course I suspect you've never had to worry about someone kicking your head in becase they decided you were a 'fag' and don't know many LGBT people so perhaps it's something you are unaware of. That's called privilege.

The hostility primarily takes place in the streets and classrooms.

Not in the media as you said in your earlier post then?

@OldCrone

The hostility primarily takes place in the streets and classrooms.

Not in the media as you said in your earlier post then?

The media certainly contributes to it yes, just as we saw a rise in disability hate crime when the tabloids were obsessed with benefit scoungers we are now seeing rises in hate crimes against LGBT people as the tabloids have become obsessed with Queers and Trans people. But even before the right wing press became fixated on trans people there was considerable social hostility and violence.

Probably not, it was very simple, if you don't understand it then perhaps the problem lies with you.

Nah, it's a simple question of maths. If trans is something that happens to both sexes, equally, at the same stage in life, then where are all of the girls who are now the same age as the Caitlyn Jenners and Helen Belchers of this world - why aren't they transitioning now in middle age? And all of the teenage girls that are transitioning now - why don't they have male equivalents in the same number?

It's almost as if there are many reasons why a teenage girl would like to cease being a teenage girl - and why a teenage boy might wait until middle age (after career progression, for example) until they transition?

It's almost as if there are many reasons why a teenage girl would like to cease being a teenage girl - and why a teenage boy might wait until middle age (after career progression, for example) until they transition?

But that's not happenong anymore, it's a historical phenomena, the reasons for which are no doubt complex given the nature of society at the time. Here's a more recent study showing tat the age of presenting for treatment is now down to just over four years between those assigned male or female at birth, and that both groups reported their firstexperiences of gender dysphoria at more or less the same age:

"The study results showed that the mean age of the transgender women’s earliest general memory and first experience of gender dysphoria were 4.5 and 6.7 years, respectively. For transgender men they were 4.7 and 6.2 years, respectively.

www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/most-gender-dysphoria-established-by-age-7-study-finds/

Transgender women lived an average 27.1 years and transgender men 22.9 years before they began social transition and/or hormonal therapy treatments."

But that's not happenong anymore, it's a historical phenomena

and the female equivalents of Caitlyn Jenner and Helen Belcher are......?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

But that's not happenong anymore, it's a historical phenomena

and the female equivalents of Caitlyn Jenner and Helen Belcher are......?

Who cares, its old news. Where's the female equivalent of Quentin Crisp and Oscar Wilde? It's old news, of interest to social historians perhaps but utterly irrelevent to the present day.

Crisp is a good example incidentally, they were 90 before they came to understand themselves as transgender - thankfully society has moved on.

Who cares, its old news. Where's the female equivalent of Quentin Crisp and Oscar Wilde? It's old news, of interest to social historians perhaps but utterly irrelevent to the present day.

ah, so there aren't any female equivalents, and late transitioners tend to be heterosexual males, motivated by...oohhh I wonder

as posited by the OP then

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Who cares, its old news. Where's the female equivalent of Quentin Crisp and Oscar Wilde? It's old news, of interest to social historians perhaps but utterly irrelevent to the present day.

ah, so there aren't any female equivalents, and late transitioners tend to be heterosexual males, motivated by...oohhh I wonder

as posited by the OP then

As the research I posted noted late transitioners are becoming a thing of the past.

"Transgender women lived an average 27.1 years and transgender men 22.9 years before they began social transition and/or hormonal therapy treatments."

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

But that's not happenong anymore, it's a historical phenomena

and the female equivalents of Caitlyn Jenner and Helen Belcher are......?

I think barley wants us to believe that they all transitioned in their 20s (so in the 70s and 80s), and we don't notice them because they pass so well.

Gender non-conforming lesbian here and middle-aged woman (and GC).
Do I know Middle -aged lesbians who have transitioned- yes about 8. And I'm not 'on the scene'. 4 of them I've know for in excess of 10-15 years.
Am I allowed to show any hint of GC-ness to anyone who also knows them (no, but we do talk on the sly and not as many friends are as on-board as they'd lead you to believe...and we are in Brighton!)
But they're women in their 40/50s so really who cares if they want to transition. It hrts no one (except partners but not always).
Do I think I would have transitioned if it had been offered to me aged 20- yes (I can't say earlier age as there's no way I'd have admitted even being gay aged 14!). I wanted to be different and felt very at odds with the world in general. I shaved my head, got tatoos and piercing and wore combats. Pretty much what most of us did then. That was enough. It wasn't acceptable being lesbisn anywhere so we were already subversive enough!
Have I any interest in transitioning now- not at all. I have always been happy to be a woman and never given the gender non conforming a second thought. In fact in many ways other than appearance im pretty much gender CONFORMING. I have children, I like cooking and gardening and pub lunches and reading and going on doggie walks. I care for elderly parents (and my brother doesn't), I'm underpaid. surely like a lot of 50 year old women. And seeing as not many of my age wear cocktail dresses and heels regularly and most people lean towards outdoor gear and dungarees trainers boots jeans ...it barely makes any difference. My colleague and I all have similar interests except which Hollywood stars we fancy...
Do I think those who I know who have transitioned are happier or its been a long held desire- honestly I think they have because they can. They feel 'masculine' and why not. I also think some older lesbians still struggle internally. But do they feel more content now? Not really. Also Testosterone alters personality a little (in the same way all hormones can) and knowing a couple of partners of trans men i can confirm it can be obsessive. Also some partners are ok and stick by. Others not. If you've got a butch girlfriend maybe ok. Although I know one woman who left her partner before mastectomy.

My opinion based on this is i think a lot of the girls would grow out of the desire to do this. It makes me mad to see men being all pro trans when this is a womens issue- encouraging girls to reject their bodies.
Also all of the women I know who have transitioned in later life have neurodiversity/highly intellectual/ some past childhood trauma and are quite political and a bit reactionary. They're not simply 'trans'.

I know a number of 'trans boys' (teen girls)and they are all Autistic or have ADHD.

For this reason I'm not in favour of any medical interventions on young people. 18 is too young for a neurodiverse young person as the brain development is delayed in some areas. How the hell do you know if you want children aged 18?!?

I'm incredibly grateful this was one less mistake i could have made.

I honestly think this whole thing is slowly burning itself out. Its a lot less a thing with current Y8s. It will fall back into a more natural number. But damage has been done sadly.

18 is too young for a neurodiverse young person as the brain development is delayed in some areas. How the hell do you know if you want children aged 18?!?

At the age of 18 you can have your face tattoed, drink yourself to death, have outlandish cosmetic surgery and join the army and potentially be sent to murder and die for your country. We accept that adults have the right to make their own choices, I don't see any reason why we should infantilise trans adults this way.

What’s a gender-diverse kid? Isn’t it just - a kid?

Of course I suspect you've never had to worry about someone kicking your head in becase they decided you were a 'fag' and don't know many LGBT people so perhaps it's something you are unaware of. That's called privilege.

People with female bodies never have to worry about physical violence just because they are women? Try telling that to the family of Sarah Everard and every frughtenedvwonwn cowering in a corner in their own homes. Privilege my arse.

@barleybadminton Decades of child psychology research points to an individual’s view of their own identity as being fluid through childhood and into adulthood, and is formed through in response to knowledge and experience of the world - interactions with different people and situations - including development of emotional responses and regulation, intellect, physicality & physiology, sexual awareness and sexuality, brain function, immunity etc etc. Full maturity is at about 25.

Where does the gender identity come in? When does it fix, in your view, and how do you define and distinguish gender identities? And at what point would you consider medical transition appropriate or necessary?

This was posted on a thread last night, focuses a lot on teen girls and social contagion:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=PBInNGgdF2M&feature=youtu.be

I’m very worried for girls and wonder how I can help them.

The classic late presenting trans women, who spent decades in the closet and trying to deny who she was until she just got to the point in middle age she couldn't stand it any longer is hopefully becoming a thing of the past as younger generations become more tolerant of trans women.

I suspect many of the younger generations tolerance and pretence that TWAW will suddenly disappear as they decide they want to settle down and have a family.

@barleybadminton

We shouldn't be sending 18 year olds to die for their country firstly. So thats a non-argument.

Tattooing your face and addictions are difficult but not irreversible. Having a hysterectomy is. Taking drugs that 'could halt brain development also.

We used to think lobotomy was a good idea and a lot of other things. They made people 'feel better'.

Why not just help people take their time to decide rather than encouraging 18 year olds into irreversible surgery just to 'feel themselves'. 18 is not that mature these days. Young people are not like they were even a generation ago. I know plenty of parents who don't let their 14 year olds into town on their own (some of these are already saying they're non-binary though and parents ok with that ).

Is barleybadminton saying that there exists a middle age transmen cohort of equal size to the current cohort of teenage girls wanting to transition, but they didn’t present to paediatric gender clinics at the time they we’re teenagers (or they would have been reflected in their stats and we wouldn’t be seeing a dramatic rise), instead they all transitioned successfully in their 20s before they got to middle age, and the evidence for this is an adult gender clinic stats from 10 years ago?

Righty-o.