Where are all the middle aged women who should be transitioning

[IcakethereforeIam]

I'm new here, I'm sorry if this has been covered or if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

I don't understand the apparent lack of curiosity in some quarters at the massive increase in girls wanting to transition. I went to school in the 80s, while my friends and I knew vaguely about sex change it was not something we thought about applying to ourselves. Perhaps we just kept it inside.

Advocates for allowing children to transition (affirmation only? ), think they don't grow out of the desire. Others say over 80% desist (watchful waiting?). I believe the first cohort believe the uptick is down to an increase in awareness of the possibility of treatment. Surely, if that is correct, there should be hundreds or thousands of closeted women around my age wanting to change their sex. Where are they? Has anyone looked for them?

If they aren't there, then why the disconnect.

@Gosports

“ I would put money on there never having been single sex state schools in Aberdeen or Inverness, don't know about the other cities, beyond husband was at a co-ed state school in Glasgow.”

Sorry I don’t know how to quote so I don’t know who said this, but my mum attended Aberdeen High school for Girls, a state school.

Also to those who think 90s culture was filled with misogyny, i rewatched a lot of 90s films during lockdown and was surprised to see just how many strong female leads there were. I for one am VERY glad I grew up then (also appreciated my single sex school), and not now.

Aberdeen High School became Harlaw Academy and was co-ed from around 1966.

@Livelifeinthebuslane

I'm sorry to hear you went through this. (Hopefully not too outing for me) but the older of my 2 friends, the one who transitioned 10 years ago sounds similar. Very recently I've reconnected and spent some time with her ex from that time (they were a long term couple) and I had to reassess my behaviour back then. Everyone pretty much 'sided' with the trans man and didn't support his female partner who felt forced to leave. It actually was pretty similar to the trans widow threads on here to be honest. She'd barely been able to talk to anyone about it as all her gay friends didn't seem supportive. None of us were even aware we were doing it. Not that we weren't surprised our other friend was transing... it came from pretty leftfield and there was literally no warning. My friend said she'd had zero indication her ex was wanting to be trans either and by that point they'd been together 10 years! So yes the conclusion from her was that it was partially mental health driven and partially social contagion. Also despite being a lesbian by that point for at least 20 years...he (she) was not overly comfortable with the identity for a number of reasons. Some of them body image ones but not 'wrong body' ones.
I guess it must feel pretty similar though to a man whose wife goes off with another woman (also not that unusual in mid life -I've known several). I expect that's a situation that's incredibly difficult to reconcile and one that is impossible to discuss in public without people either siding with your ex wife or making fun... I'm not a man though so only speculate.

@OnlyTheTitosaurusOfTheIceberg yes because it would seem to be a middle aged transman you need to first be a lesbian. I'm not convinced there are any transmen who aren't lesbians tbh even if just closeted ones. I'm not sure if all of the teen girls are.. but prob also a high percentage.
Interesting I also think a lot of lgbt in general are neurodiverse. But will be flamed for that!

Some trans men identify as gay men.. or have an interest in gay male identity. I'm not sure how successfully though.

Some trans men identify as gay men..
That is very homophobic of them, gay men are same sex attracted and to conflate sex and gender is denying gay men's right to be homosexual.

Trans people, for the most part, don’t seem to want to have sexual relationships with me

Dear me, tell us you know nothing about trans people without telling us you know nothing about trans people.

@334bu

*Some trans men identify as gay men.. * That is very homophobic of them, gay men are same sex attracted and to conflate sex and gender is denying gay men's right to be homosexual.

No it's not. What a silly thing to say.

@NotBadConsidering

Sorry, I’m still laughing at this and want to reiterate this point.

barleybadminton thinks older males who have, shall we say, a particular presentation will soon be a thing of the past because the age of these males when they present is coming down to match the females presenting.😆😆

So where are they? Jane Fae transitioned well over a decade ago, Caitlynn Jenner had been experimenting with her gender since the 80s including hornones and finally came out 7 years ago. I can't think of one high profile trans woman who has come out in middle age in the last 5/6 years. Recent studies have put the age of those assigned male presenting to gender clinics at between 27 and 34 years on average.

So where are all the middle aged men who should be transitioning (according to the logic of this thread).

No it's not. What a silly thing to say.

Yes it is.What a homophobic thing to say!

@334bu

*No it's not. What a silly thing to say.*

Yes it is.What a homophobic thing to say!

How does a trans man identifying as gay deny a gay man the right to be homosexual?. You might quibble about the language, but gay men are still free to fancy and fuck and love men as much as they want. It would be difficult to see how a trans man could stop them.

Denying people's sexuality is against the Equality Act. Epitome of homophobia.

So where are all the middle aged men who should be transitioning (according to the logic of this thread)

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/nov/01/a-new-start-after-60-petra-wenham-transition-transgender

www.newyorker.com/video/watch/the-new-yorker-documentary-coming-out-as-a-trans-woman-at-fifty-eight

www.vox.com/the-highlight/2020/2/12/21075683/trans-coming-out-cost-of-womanhood-pink-tax

I’m laughing at the idea that you proposed the age of these males when they transition will come down therefore late, middle-aged males who fit a certain profile will be a thing of the past. It’s laughable for two reasons. First, that there won’t always be a group of males with a….particular view on what it means to be a woman who won’t want to realise this until later in their lives.

And second, the only truth that can validate your argument is the possibility that these males will have their….particular view on what it means to be a woman earlier in their lives. This isn’t the gotcha you think it is, it would just highlight how a certain clinical profile was becoming more socially acceptable to openly demonstrate at a younger age .

And it certainly in no way has any bearing whatsoever on why there are so many teenage girls and so few middle aged females.

It’s laughable for two reasons. First, that there won’t always be a group of males with a….particular view on what it means to be a woman who won’t want to realise this until later in their lives.

This is just nonsense. Late transitioners have usually lived their entire lives in shame and tried desperately to repress who they are because they grew up in a world that didn't tolerate them. Often they try to be men, get married, have kids, and don't want to blow up their families. It's no different to gays and lesbians who came out in middle age in the 80s, they didn't pretend to be straight because they wanted to get a career first but because they were frightened of what society would do to them if they came out. It's unspeakably cruel to attack someone who has never felt able to express who they are due to simple social bigotry and who finally finds the courage to come out late in life.

So where are all the middle aged men who should be transitioning (according to the logic of this thread)

To add to NotBad's list, David/Diana Thomas in the Telegraph:

www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/transgender-diary-women-have-huge-privilege-compared-transwomen/

Often they try to be men

They don't have to try to be men, they are men. A man is an adult male human.

@barleybadminton

It’s laughable for two reasons. First, that there won’t always be a group of males with a….particular view on what it means to be a woman who won’t want to realise this until later in their lives.

This is just nonsense. Late transitioners have usually lived their entire lives in shame and tried desperately to repress who they are because they grew up in a world that didn't tolerate them. Often they try to be men, get married, have kids, and don't want to blow up their families. It's no different to gays and lesbians who came out in middle age in the 80s, they didn't pretend to be straight because they wanted to get a career first but because they were frightened of what society would do to them if they came out. It's unspeakably cruel to attack someone who has never felt able to express who they are due to simple social bigotry and who finally finds the courage to come out late in life.

Again, laughable. I’m not “attacking” anyone. You said these people will cease to exist. I said that idea is laughable. There will always be late presenting males because of the common reason behind their presentation. I have attacking no one or nothing other than your proposal.

What motivates these late male transitioned? Are you saying they won’t have to hide that in the future?

And again, how is the shifting demographics of late male transitioners relevant to the huge number of teenage girls seeking to transition?

[quote OldCrone]So where are all the middle aged men who should be transitioning (according to the logic of this thread)

To add to NotBad's list, David/Diana Thomas in the Telegraph:

www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/transgender-diary-women-have-huge-privilege-compared-transwomen/[/quote]
Good example. These are not people who suddenly became trans but who have battled with who they are their entire lives. Thankfully trans women now feel able to come out much younger.

"By the time I was at university, I was seeing my first shrinks. They told me my feelings of being in the wrong body were just sexual fantasies, a phase I would get over. I was desperate to believe that was true.

"I wanted to be a husband and father. Those dreams came true, but none of them would have been possible had I transitioned back then. As a trans woman, I would have been a social outcast.

"So I do not regret my male life. The love I felt for my family was and always will be true. But it took a huge psychological effort to fight the battle against my true self.

"I was filled with shame, self-disgust, bursting with pent-up anger and unhappiness. And yet, ironically, I thought I was protecting my family and my marriage by trying so hard to be a real man."

There will always be late presenting males because of the common reason behind their presentation.

And what have you decided is the common reason behind their presentation?

I thought I was protecting my family and my marriage by trying so hard to be a real man.

Again this bizarre idea that a male human has to 'try' to be a man. He doesn't. He is a man just by existing.

Common traits seen in many of these late male transitioners is a stereotypical description of womanhood, appearance, clothing, etc. Do you think that males who feel this way will now be able to achieve these outcomes earlier in their lives?

And what is the relevance of this to the huge number of teenage girls seeking to transition?

“Greengate66

I do wonder if declining testosterone levels in middle aged men prompts them into thinking they are less manly than before and therefore women (aside from the paraphillia element which has to account for most of it).”

“Today 14:48 MrGHardy

I have asked this question many times, never received an answer.”

I have been wondering this too and asked earlier in the tread.

As a separate question, I am also curious as to how a woman might feel different, and possibly approach life differently, after taking testosterone.

@OnlyTheTitosaurusOfTheIceberg I can’t stop thinking about the last bit of your post. the way you worded it has just polarised things for me. Where are the former forty something women who have led typical heterosexual lives, children, husbands, housework? These former women should now identify as middle aged trans men who are homosexual and present as a stereotypical embodiment of male homosexuality. Where are they?

Gabbi Alon Tuft is an example of someone who was famous pre-transition. They came out after lockdown.

If you read round stuff written by particular cohort of middle age male transitioners.

It's pretty obvious what majority driving force is.

Plenty of TW in that area are more than happy to write about it at length.

Even in mainstream. Person in telegraph whose name I forget for example. The piece about changing chest I remember in particular.

Telegraph columnist on chest-

'In fact – and I apologise if it’s toe-curling time again – I think my boobs are, well… pretty. They’re neat and round and because they’re so new and small, they don’t sag. I love how they feel, too, and the way I keep being reminded of their presence. I can’t see a flight of stairs, or an escalator on the Tube, without wanting to run up it two steps at a time. I like to come down fast, too. But it’s a very different experience when you suddenly have to clamp a hand across your chest to stop the jiggling'

'As I write these words, I am somewhere between a 36A and B. If I reach that B, I’ll be delighted. If I can’t, it’s not the end of the world. I absolutely don’t see the need for surgical enhancement.

I’m insecure, overcritical and self-hating about pretty much every aspect of my transitioning self. But my breasts and my long legs (the one big positive to being a six-footer) are the bits I don’t have to worry about.'

Breasts and legs. Long legs. Non saggy breasts. Good news

Googling for advice on development of chest. Useful info on sites used by pubescent girls.

'I googled away and up popped a site that gave me lots of reassuring information and added, ‘Even if your development is normal, it can be hard if you seem to be either the first or the last one among your classmates or friends to develop breasts.’

Ah, yes, fair enough. The people who ask questions like this are more likely to be girls aged 11 to 13, than men old enough to be their grandfather. There’s something weird, not to say toe-curlingly ‘eeeewww’, about a man of 60 who looks down and sees the breasts of an adolescent girl sprouting on his chest.'

.

Are you talking about mature over-30s lesbians becoming trans?