Where are all the middle aged women who should be transitioning

[IcakethereforeIam]

I'm new here, I'm sorry if this has been covered or if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

I don't understand the apparent lack of curiosity in some quarters at the massive increase in girls wanting to transition. I went to school in the 80s, while my friends and I knew vaguely about sex change it was not something we thought about applying to ourselves. Perhaps we just kept it inside.

Advocates for allowing children to transition (affirmation only? ), think they don't grow out of the desire. Others say over 80% desist (watchful waiting?). I believe the first cohort believe the uptick is down to an increase in awareness of the possibility of treatment. Surely, if that is correct, there should be hundreds or thousands of closeted women around my age wanting to change their sex. Where are they? Has anyone looked for them?

If they aren't there, then why the disconnect.

A good friend of mine , early 50's, says she would have transitioned had she been younger and it had been more socially acceptable. She's quite jealous of younger people who are transitioning but would never do it now; she has developed autoimmune health conditions that make it inadvisable and she has stopped seeing herself as a sexual person (this was always an area of difficulty for her because of her body.)

She's struggled with relationships her whole life as she doesn't feel right in her body - doesn't want to have the anatomy that she does, doesn't want other people to relate sexually to the anatomy she has. She feels this would have been different had some of the possibilities now been options for her 30 years ago.

But now she frankly feels like that ship has sailed. She also can't be arsed with the hassle of social transtion - she has Dr. as a prefix and a unisex first name so that is enough for her.

In the same Kathleen Stock piece I linked to above, she says she would definitely have been attracted to defining herself as non-binary when she was younger had that phrase been available to her. She says, and I completely agree, that many women (and men) are/were uncomfortable with the stereotypes of femininity (and masculinity respectively).

In terms of middle aged women not bothering transitioning, even though they might like to, is there something around the fact that they can become quite invisible/dress very 'masculine' and so just kind of fade into the back ground a bit without making a song and dance about it.

A lot of youngsters seem to adopt these identities for attention, dare I say?

I think because it’s acceptable in society for women to present as masculine and wear male clothing, take up male hobbies, etc. But it’s not acceptable for men to present as feminine and wear female clothing and take up female hobbies, unless they transition. Just consider how people would treat a woman in trousers vs how they’d treat a man in a dress.

I've got a friend who transitioned in her 40s, she'd seemed quite happy with being a butch lesbian, though she had a history of sexual assault and poor mental health.

I would have thought one of the the main reasons though is the lower rate of paraphilias in women.

I know quite a lot of transmen over 40. Maybe you aren't moving in the right circles.

Middle aged and old women are not allowed to 'identify' as anything other than middle aged/old women. Their husbands would kick them out and their teens would say they were 'taking the piss' (but if anyone their own age identifies as anything else that is immediately embraced and applauded, no questions asked).

Are they writing or youtubing about their experiences, @aramox1? I'd be interested to hear their voices, and they are one of the groups who are unusually hard to find.

Its called the menopause?

What do you mean, @Needmoresleep? You see a link between menopause and gender?

Pre-pandemic, I chatted with a psychiatrist who did screening referrals for an adult gender clinic. Bearing in mind that the vast majority of middle-aged/late transitioning men are heterosexual, I asked them how many heterosexual middle-aged women they had seen over the years.

One.

And even that one felt they might be bi.

While the psychiatrist didn't know why this disparity between the sexes existed, he did wonder how many heterosexual men would be happy to describe themselves as now being in a gay male relationship with a transitioned partner - and he felt that transition was likely to be a feature only of male rather than female heterosexuality...

No. Nothibg about gender. The menopause is as a result of significant hormonal changes, including a loss of oestrogen. Presumably part of the treatment if one wanted to transition. Transmen effectively go through early menopause (with added T). Just throwing it out there as a possible reason middle aged women feel less interest in transitioning. (And perhaps why teenagers going through puberty feel more.)

I have an extended family member who announced that she was transitioning FtM in her late forties. Social transition only, no hormones or surgery (because she is intelligent enough not to play fast and loose with her health), just a masculinised version of her name and a tidy masculine haircut and clothing. She does an ordinary public facing job, doesn't make an issue of being transgender, and passes quite well. She was (is!) a straight woman and remains married to her husband. There are no children or other care responsibilities.

She has rewritten history with regard to her childhood. Her own generation (mine) and the generation after, with no personal investment in her identity, have all said, "You are who you are and we accept your narrative." Her octogenarian parents can't get their heads round being accused of failing to notice in the 1970s that their cheerful little girl was actually a miserable, suicidal little boy. They will probably die with that injustice hanging over them.

“Needmoresleep

Its called the menopause?”

“vivariumvivariumsvivaria

What do you mean, @Needmoresleep? You see a link between menopause and gender?“

Could @Needmoresleep mean the menopause making women feel relatively neutral and genderless?

Maybe for some menu their drop in testosterone in middle age makes them confused about their gender. Maybe they ‘feel’ what they assume is femininity compared to what they were used to. (Less driven, assertive, dominant, less muscular, weaker physically.)

It goes back to the male gaze.
Every single fucking time.

I wear trousers, barely bother with lipstick and I am due to get my hair cropped short this week. I could say I am presenting as non-binary or a gay transman under Stonewall's definitions. Yet, no one will bat an eyelid because to be masculine is not an insult. To do the same as a man (long hair, skirt, makeup etc.) will immediately be noticed and clocked as "different".

With a female it's about fuckability. Over 40, you are either a harpy, a MILF or invisible (support human). With men, it's the defence of masculinity (or not). Over 40 for a man and you are either an alpha, boss or support human.

I am being crude here, but it's roughly in line with the hyper-sexualised porn culture we have going on. Most transmen are unlikely to be seen as a) it's not stunning and brave and b) they are female and sick to the back teeth of labels.

“KohlaParasaurus

I have an extended family member who announced that she was transitioning FtM in her late forties. Social transition only, no hormones or surgery (because she is intelligent enough not to play fast and loose with her health), just a masculinised version of her name and a tidy masculine haircut and clothing. She does an ordinary public facing job, doesn't make an issue of being transgender, and passes quite well. She was (is!) a straight woman and remains married to her husband. There are no children or other care responsibilities.

She has rewritten history with regard to her childhood. Her own generation (mine) and the generation after, with no personal investment in her identity, have all said, "You are who you are and we accept your narrative." Her octogenarian parents can't get their heads round being accused of failing to notice in the 1970s that their cheerful little girl was actually a miserable, suicidal little boy. They will probably die with that injustice hanging over them.“

That is interesting KholaParasaurus. If she remained married to her husband, does not take hormones and did not have surgery is the main difference to her simply being treated as a man by wider society?

What about her voice? Has she learnt to lower it?

Does she ever talk about how different that treatment of her, as a man by society around her, is to how it was when she lived as a woman?

That seems quite a simple approach that many woman might sympathise with in a general way.

Many years ago I read an article about some unmarried women in Romania (I think) who dressed and looked like men so they would be left alone and allowed to get on with life as farmers. It seemed to a good way out of what would not have been a good deal in life for them as women.

I know at least three trans men who transitioned in their 30s/40s and follow a number of others on twitter. I'm not sure exactly how/where would you expect them to be visible if you're not personally moving in circles where there are lots of trans people. But just because you personally don't know them doesn't mean they don't exist, and I'm not sure why you'd assume that's the case.

Blueberrycheezecake, don't know why you assume I'm assuming and not just trying to educate myself. But thank you for your reply.

@aramox1 and @BlueberryCheezecake
Can you say a bit more about these transmen that you know?

Many (most?) of the older male transitioners are heterosexual and married (to women) and many of them also have children (sometimes quite young children). Do the older (40+ when they transitioned) female transitioners that you know also follow this pattern or were they previously lesbians? Do they insist that their husbands accept that they are now gay?

It's interesting that you both talk about the 'circles' that people move in. Many people here personally know children or young women who identify as trans as well as males of all ages. There's no need to move in particular 'circles' to come across a child who identifies as trans or non binary, who might be your own child or a friend of your child. No need to move in particular circles to come across a young woman who identifies as trans or nb. No need to move in particular circles to go into work one Monday morning to find that your colleague Dave has decided he's Davina and wants to use the ladies loo from now on. It's just the older women who are missing.

@ScrollingLeaves she has a low, modulated voice with a strong regional accent (like Val McDermid has) and I don't think anyone would say she sounded female unless they were looking for evidence that she was female.

I suspect her decision to transition arose from presenting as male when gaming and as a writer for some years before. I've never asked her about the difference in how she's treated in real life because she doesn't like talking about having been a girl and woman, as if she is in denial that she was ever that person. She is otherwise perfectly sane and no-nonsense.

I've know one - a woman in her thirties married to a man. She started as NB and last I heard had started identifying as man. She'd always been gender non-conforming and not very robust, physically or mentally.

Sorry - that wasn't clear. She identified as a woman, then NB for about a year, then male.

@KohlaParasaurus
Thank you for answering. I am sorry if my questions seemed overly nosey, but I am genuinely interested in your relative’s approach which is the first I’ve heard of its kind apart from the Romanian women I mentioned. In their case though it is easy to see it would be a way out of a form of slavery, where it seems less so in our society. Your relative’s husband sounds very nice.

I am aware of several women, in their 30's and 40's whom I have taken as lesbians adopting different names, either masculine or androgynous and looking slightly different than they used to. They might pass as male but are slighter than men would be.
I think there are a fair number of not young lesbians taking testosterone and transitioning to some degree. I also suspect that they are just quietly getting on with their lives.
In my own circle of friends and acquaintances, I'm not aware of any heterosexual women doing this.

I'd really like to know more about this. I remember Katie Herzog who presents 'blocked and reported' saying she first became aware of the trans issue when a shocking number of lesbians in her social circle began to transition a few years ago. It does seem to be happening, just not hitting the radar in the same way as all the men doing it.

I don't think it quite gets to the spirit of the OP though, which I think refers to the sudden huge upswing in teenage girls transitioning, and the accompanying narrative that they're doing it because for the first time they can, and would have all along if things had been different; which like many here I find an indefensibly unsatisfying explanation.

I think it would interesting to look at the different experiences of heterosexual women who are FTM compared with lesbians just as I think it’s interesting to compare the experiences of straight MTF compared with gay & to understand more about the factors driving transition in the different cohorts