Gender nonsense will be the Tories secret weapon

[bellinisurge]

To my mind, the only way the Tories can get themselves out of their self made mess is to shine a light on gender woo woo in the Labour Party. I'm guessing that was behind Wes Streeting's tentative "maybe we shouldn't say burn the witch all the time".
How can they not see how vulnerable they are when Liz Truss has become a more appealing prospect for women's rights.
Jesus.

Hear, hear, VelvetChair.

"And all the Tories have to do is to ask Labour MPs to define the word woman"

Rosie Duffield < (Labour MP) can do it; Penny Mordaunt (Tory MP) might struggle.

Yeah velvet. Good post about the reality of what the movement is about

To get away from responding to disruptive posters, I think that there is a somewhat bigger picture to Labour's troubles re gender. Gender ideology for them is just one part of a larger ideological shift towards identity politics.

And while gender ideology is the place it's most visibly failing, it's frankly a vote loser overall. When you have a party like Labour that pushes out people like Trevor Phillips for wrong-think, that's a problem. Because while he personally may not, where do they think other people who are similar to him will go? A lot of them will vote Tory, or thinking long term, they may actually join the CP, and begin to change the face of it. An alliance between the left working classes and amall-c conservatives is not the leap some people in Labour seem to imagine, it's as natural, maybe more natural than the alliance between liberalism and the left or liberalism and conservatism. Labour could end up becoming entirely the party of the urban bourgeoisie. And that may not be enough of a voting base to prevail.

Sorry but even though I agree with many people on this thread about many, many things, this just isn't an issue that will cut through at general election

It's not going to work.

Look at the North Shropshire bye election - LibDems are even more loopy on this than the Labour party and it had no effect on their vote.

I'll be voting LibDem in my constituency as the best anti-Tory vote. I can't justify voting Tory just on this one issue alone when they're doing so much damage in other ways. If there are people here who put this issue above everything else in their vote then I respect that choice but it won't be mine.

'everyone here can see you for what you are'

This, this, this. There is something slightly mindblowing seeing someone display themselvs in a bad light while being totally unaware of it.

Or I assume they are unaware, maybe they are so contemptous that they dont care?

@newnamesa

'everyone here can see you for what you are'

This, this, this. There is something slightly mindblowing seeing someone display themselvs in a bad light while being totally unaware of it.

Or I assume they are unaware, maybe they are so contemptous that they dont care?

I read that and the name Lammy is in my head, I used to think he was alright, used to listen to him on LBC standing in for James, but now I think he is a utter cock, cant stand that arrogant misogynist, in one foul swoop he nailed his colours to the bloody mast in neon lights 50 foot tall! and I dont listen to James either after his behaviour when debbie Hayton was on the phone trying to explain the difference between males and females physically when it comes to sport and he was spouting bollocks and not listening.

they are so contemptous that they dont care?

I think that this is it.

It is how they can claim to be the self appointed 'authority' on so many other group's interests. Claiming to be an authority on working class women's interests because they know some working class women and women in prison as has been said on other threads, is offensive though.

How can it be dressed up in any other way? When one poster is making such claims for women while speaking over the top of posters that are representative of that group?

@Tanith

"And all the Tories have to do is to ask Labour MPs to define the word woman"

Rosie Duffield < (Labour MP) can do it; Penny Mordaunt (Tory MP) might struggle.

Rosie Duffield is one backbencher. The media doesn't often take much notice of individual backbenchers.

@YukoandHiro

Sorry but even though I agree with many people on this thread about many, many things, this just isn't an issue that will cut through at general election

I'm sure that the question of just how much it would cost to hire x number of police officers isn't something that particularly cuts through at a general election. Watching a senior member of the Shadow Cabinet fall to pieces over it however had a lasting impact on perceptions of how capable the public thought Labour were of government.

@HPFA

It's not going to work.

Look at the North Shropshire bye election - LibDems are even more loopy on this than the Labour party and it had no effect on their vote.

I'll be voting LibDem in my constituency as the best anti-Tory vote. I can't justify voting Tory just on this one issue alone when they're doing so much damage in other ways. If there are people here who put this issue above everything else in their vote then I respect that choice but it won't be mine.

By-elections are never reliable indicators of trends though. The Lib Dems might be TWAW but they're such an insignificant party now on a national basis that they don't even get invited to interviews in order to get into a muddle.

@HPFA

but it had a massive effect. From Zero to winning the seat. It happens to the Lib Dems all the time. Conservatives use the Lib Dems to register annoyance at their party. Had you forgotten Zac Goldsmith. Wins handsomely, then loses massively, then the Conservatives get the seat back at GE. Which is why the Lib Dems are still not cutting through in the media.

Liberalism in the UK has always thought it's known best and the attitude of 'you just need to be educated' hacks off lots of WC people and have a choice. Politics is a bit arse about at the minute and we just don't know where the chips will fall.

We wont know until the opinion polls tell is what the Liberal voice thinks will happen, and then it wont

DdraigGoch

Exactly. Even though not many people might care about the actual issue, (although I think a lot of people do care, they see it all of a piece with toppling statues and re-writing Enid Blyton), watching them flounder over simple questions like what is a woman is tv gold.

Like others, I don't believe that either party cares much about women, or their issues. But the Tories didn't go around telling people that women don't have a cervix.

It's less about the issue, and more about making your opponent look like a twat by asking very simple questions.

Are you forgetting Penny Mordaunt? What did BJ answer when asked the definition of woman?

I think that's missing the point? Straight GC people are not calling appropriating a name from the gay community. I don't think this poster was saying that straight people can't be allies, just that when they commandeer language for their own purposes, at the expense of gay people, then they can't.

I'm not sure you've understood correctly. The poster I'm replying to believes that GC people are all straight and therefore their input isn't wanted. They aren't, and lots of the "queer" lobby are also straight.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think that's missing the point? Straight GC people are not calling appropriating a name from the gay community. I don't think this poster was saying that straight people can't be allies, just that when they commandeer language for their own purposes, at the expense of gay people, then they can't.

I'm not sure you've understood correctly. The poster I'm replying to believes that GC people are all straight and therefore their input isn't wanted. They aren't, and lots of the "queer" lobby are also straight.

I thought it was now a pre-requisite to be straight to call yourself queer?

What's it supposed to mean now?

Datun

@SantaClawsServiette

To get away from responding to disruptive posters, I think that there is a somewhat bigger picture to Labour's troubles re gender. Gender ideology for them is just one part of a larger ideological shift towards identity politics.

And while gender ideology is the place it's most visibly failing, it's frankly a vote loser overall. When you have a party like Labour that pushes out people like Trevor Phillips for wrong-think, that's a problem. Because while he personally may not, where do they think other people who are similar to him will go? A lot of them will vote Tory, or thinking long term, they may actually join the CP, and begin to change the face of it. An alliance between the left working classes and amall-c conservatives is not the leap some people in Labour seem to imagine, it's as natural, maybe more natural than the alliance between liberalism and the left or liberalism and conservatism. Labour could end up becoming entirely the party of the urban bourgeoisie. And that may not be enough of a voting base to prevail.

Isn't this what happened with the former red wall seats?

Some more 👏🏻 for Velvet. Great post!

@bellinisurge I've mentioned same to MP (Con)) - currently discussing the problem with schools (teaching gender I'd, lgbgtq+ clubs and focus, external groups), ROGD, and the potential harm to talking therapy for children in the bill to ban 'conversion' therapy.
Have put forward comments to Dept of Ed and Liz Truss.
I think this is a key area as more parents wake up to what's happening in their schools and potential implications.

Not sure how it will affect electoral behaviour. I know there's quite a hefty group of Conservatives behind the scenes, trying to maintain a rational stance, but I don't know if the party would be brave enough to make it an open committment to pushing back on gender ideology, and also vociferously supporting women's and sex-based rights due to current climate
However, with institutions leaving Stonewall, and a couple of years yet to the next GE, I'm hopeful that more awareness will be achieved in the electorate to allow a very clear open debate and drawing lines.

Have totally gone off the other parties due to this issue, whereas used to vote LD etc, and never voted for the Cons, but this issue would be enough to sway me, I find.

Sorry but even though I agree with many people on this thread about many, many things, this just isn't an issue that will cut through at general election

Agree, for most people, the sex/gender wars are not high priority

I'd agree with @SantaClawsServiette about the shift to Idpol and it really troubles me. It's so divisive and reductive: everyone is to be described by the most obvious facet of who they are, and then expected to fall into line behind various (often self-appointed) 'leaders' of the community to which they belong.

It's as if some people are hell-bent on pulling society apart.

Been talking to uni age DD about all things gender woo.

She pointed out to me that her generation was raised, in the main, as completely accepting of both gay rights and equality between races. As a result, many of her peers are rejecting the gender nonsense on the grounds that :

Lesbians particularly but also guys are being persecuted once more for their sexual orientation.

Muslims, particularly women but also men, are suffering from a lack of consideration about how this affects them. Muslim women are quietly speaking to their non Muslim peers about how they have to be so careful now to avoid accidently being in situations around men claiming to be women that would go against their religious circumstances.