Gender nonsense will be the Tories secret weapon

[bellinisurge]

To my mind, the only way the Tories can get themselves out of their self made mess is to shine a light on gender woo woo in the Labour Party. I'm guessing that was behind Wes Streeting's tentative "maybe we shouldn't say burn the witch all the time".
How can they not see how vulnerable they are when Liz Truss has become a more appealing prospect for women's rights.
Jesus.

More and more people, including Wes Streeting are now acknowledging the viciousness and bullying that comes from some parts of gender critical social media, and all these targets have friends, colleagues, often people with significant power.

You are deluded. Up until now, Labour have been fully TWAW and have said some unbelievably stupid shit to keep up with this (eg. Male rapists should go to a female prison if they want, men can grow a cervix, babies are born without a sex). They would be the first to jump on 'gender critical bullying' (see Alex Sobel and his 'I don't need your vote you bigot' tweets). There is no 'now' about it.

Wes Streeting is the first Labour MP to say anything which deviates from the creed and it was clear that the 'bullying' comments was 'both sides' lip service. The fact that he said what he said is a signal that GC opinions can no longer be ignored. It was actually very significant I thought.

I take your point to an extent, but do you not think that the opinions on Twitter may make their way to the polling stations? Or that the disgusting behaviour by TRAs on Twitter has alienated the decent trans people? Or that people who know that biology and sex based rights and language matter do not also have friends, colleagues with significant power?

Well I'm sure the few hundred people who drive gender critical twitter will vote against any party that supports trans inclusion but I'm not really seeing any evidence they are bringing people onto their side - quite the opposite in fact, they are completely alienating people left, right and centre and making scores of future adverseries in the process - not least amongst the police, a notoriously vindictive organisation.

I do agree the behaviour of trans supportive people has been very unhelpful at times, and at other times should be completely condemned. And it largely has been, things are not like they were, so it's starting to become yesterdays news in a lot of ways, it's increasingly GC abusive behaviour coming under the spotlight now.

And the difference is most of those accounts were anonymous and the kind of vile trolls that affect all politcal debate sadly at the moment. There's nothing unique in what happened to Rowling, just ask Dianne Abbot or Ash Sarkur. Misogyny in a major problem online, as is more generalised abuse. But the actual TRAs, as in named activts, people like Paris Lees, Christine Burns etc haven't behaved like that. There's been a bit of it on the fringe like Dr Harrop, and sanctions have been faced for that, but on the whole there is nothing like the same level of vitriol, and particularly the tendency to accuse everyone who disagrees of being a groomer, or opposing safeguarding, or worse that frequently happens during GC pile ons.

The Glinner's and Posies should have been nipped in the bud from the start. They've sacrificed credibility for fleeting popularity often amongst some very unpleasant people and it has caused untold harm to the GC movement. And people like Maya spending a week ranting at a volunteer special constable because she wore nail polish is not doing the movement any favours either. People are looking at it and increasingly shaking their heads I'm afraid. And now the infighting is escalating and both demands and tactics becoming more extreme that's a problem that's only going to get worse. That's why I think it's over, or at least the end is near, no-one is going to want to be associated with this in a couple of years.

Well clearly barleybadminton has our best interests at heart and we should listen to xer brilliant advice and insights...

or at least enjoy the IMAX projection. Please tell us more of your thoughts barley, I think it's useful to understand what you fear is happening to your contemptible excuse for a social justice movement. You've been 100% correct so far, once the appropriate TRA-projection filter is applied to your words.

But it hasn’t been condemned has it. Not once do you see the likes of LOJ, Sarkar, burns, paddick, cashman, stonewall or mermaids call out the death threats, the rape threats, the targeting and harassment of academics like Kathleen stock or Rosa freedman. They stay silent every time. At best you get mealy mouthed both sideism (though strangely no one can find a GC account sending death threats or rape threats) or extensive amounts of whataboutery

Nancy Kelly for example could have said emphatically that while stonewall disagreed with JKR, they whole heartedly condemned death threats against her or anyone,

Instead they stay silent which makes one think they rather like the use of threats of violence against ppl who don’t agree with them that TWAW

@barleybadminton

Don't confused GC with being anti trans inclusion. Like most others I think trans people should be included in society. They should not lose jobs, experience violence or be denied access to unisex facilities because they are trans and we need laws to enforce that. But female only spaced should remain just that. I think you need to be clearer with your definition of trans inclusion.

I’ll never vote for the Tories (and don’t for a second believe they are about women anyway), but I will not vote for people who treat me like I’m a fucking idiot, who will lie straight to my face - so that’s Labour, Lib Dems and the greens out then. I used to sometimes vote Green simply because our local candidate was such a good guy, but that’s not enough given the recent behaviour of the party.

So, I’ll be voting for a decent single-issue local candidate, or I won’t be voting at all.

You've gotta love an advocate for male supremacism trying to paint women as the extremists.

What media do you read @barleybadminton? Because maybe in your genderwoo land you think this is going your way because someone’s won a golden globe or Streeting felt the need to cover his pathetic arse by berating GC feminists when TRAs routinely send rape and death threats, doxx and harass women, set up websites mocking their appearance, their children. We have all the screen grabs, they are horrifying.

In fact why don’t you read this thread about the horrific racist abuse FGM survivor and campaigner Jana Cornell receives from TRAs simply for using the word female within the context of FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION:
panoramicgutterview.blogspot.com/2021/03/female-genital-mutilation-and-right.html?m=1

Or that Allison Bailey receives for standing up for women’s and lesbian’s rights. twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1480143656380252161

Wait until this stuff gets out into the mainstream press. Kind of fucks #bekind against a wall and I’m not sure how that plan to glom yourselves on to BLM will work, what do you think?

You’ve had this time because people didn’t know and people didn’t know because people were frightened to speak up, or if they weren’t their posts would be deleted, their accounts shut down, their voices silenced. The media ran scared for a while but now you have the BBC, Times, The Telegraph and the Mail all running stories on lesbians being harassed and raped by TW, TW invading women’s rape counselling groups, TW men raping women in prisons, TRAs threatening, abusing and doxxing women... and there will be more and more and more to come. You know most people didn’t even know that the majority of TW kept their penis - well that’s out now and people aren’t up for it. They aren’t up for lesbians being coerced to sleep with male-bodied people. They don’t think rape victims should have to call their rapist a woman. They understand now how this ideology is affecting their children, how vulnerable teens are being groomed, how organisations and individuals are grooming children. They know how Stonewall operates, they watch the government departments and universities pulling out of their schemes.

There is a WHOLE NEW SOCIAL MEDIA CHANNEL where GC campaigners can share and post this information without being mass reported and their accounts shut down simply for sharing their opinions, the truth about what’s happening, where they can post the receipts. It’s out there and it’s open and available to journalists. Next thing it’s in the newspapers, online, being shared. GC sites/publications like The Critic and Unherd are thriving. Meanwhile Twitter’s stock is taking a hammering.

The jig is up!

But the actual TRAs, as in named activts, people like Paris Lees, Christine Burns etc haven't behaved like that.

Didn't Christine Burns say that rapists have a better line in manners than women, because they treat their victims, without prejudice, as women? (It was part of a discussion about transwomen being turned away from rape crisis centres).

but on the whole there is nothing like the same level of vitriol, and particularly the tendency to accuse everyone who disagrees of being a groomer, or opposing safeguarding, or worse that frequently happens during GC pile on

I just had to highlight this for the lurkers.

The claim that 'there is nothing like the same kind of vitriol' is a nonsense. Gender ideology has given those with sexist, misognistic and frankly women hating views a platform to express those views without condemnation. If anything, the appalling behaviour towards women has become socially acceptable under the guise of inclusion. Nicola Sturgeon produced a video, pleading with party members who had declared their intention to leave the party due to its 'transphobia' to stay, while saying absolutely nothing to condemn the party member who made credible rape threats towards Joanna Cherry. Many women, including myself, really became aware of what's going on due to the appalling (and continuing) abuse of JK Rowling. And of course, there's no 'GC' equivalent of this deeply unpleasant collection- www.terfisaslur.com

The delusion of those who say comments like this - 'but I'm not really seeing any evidence they are bringing people onto their side - quite the opposite in fact, they are completely alienating people left, right and centre and making scores of future adverseries in the process - not least amongst the police, a notoriously vindictive organisation' - is really quite gobsmacking.

No debate, deplatforming and the chilling effect has been enormously effective. Women haven't been able to talk openly because of the real risk of losing their employment due to being reported to their employers for 'wrongthink' or being harassed by the police on spurious charges. There's a comment on another thread that a woman should lose her job for sharing posts by feminist organisations on her private Facebook page and for spending her own money on crowdfunders.

But I don't think TRA's quite get how all this works underneath it all. It's a bit like Labour being taken aback by the actual votes at a recent election, having been lulled into a false impression by the chat on Twitter. Women are talking in real life. Carefully and quietly but still discussing and questioning. I've had two conversations in the last fortnight with women who have only recently become aware of all this. And they are horrified. Particularly at the violence and vitriol of those determined to erode women's rights.

It's the absolute denial by TRA's that anyone be allowed a differing opinion that will bring about the downfall of gender ideology. People are no longer willing to abide by no debate. People will not accept being told that they must accept something they know not to be true.

@Goatsaregreat

You've gotta love an advocate for male supremacism trying to paint women as the extremists.

IKR

@CorrBlimeyGG

You know women's rights is far bigger than you not liking trans people don't you? What is Liz Truss' voting record on employment rights, benefit cuts, cuts to public services and healthcare? They all affect women far more than any trans woman will.

So you're saying that PIP claimants are never going to vote Tory again?

I've got news for you, most didn't vote Tory in the past. So 2.5m people who didn't vote Tory still aren't going to vote Tory. That's not the sort of thing which causes landslides.

The overall image of a party and its leadership matter far more than individual policies. Boris' image is taking a hammering at the moment but they can easily wipe the slate clean with a new leader (and the Conservative backbenches are notoriously ruthless in that regard). It then doesn't take a half-competent spin doctor to get the tabloids going "Ha, look at Starmer, he can't even answer what he thinks a woman is." The effect is then similar to what happened when Diane Abbott got into a muddle with numbers, everyone treats Labour as a bit of a joke rather than a serious party capable of running the country.

After all, 95% of people know what a woman is, they think it's batshit that Labour (or Lib/GPEW/SNP) don't.

Not that much of a problem given Biden's resounding election win on the back of the most pro-trans rights platform ever pursued by a US presidential candidate.
@barleybadminton he was up against a lunatic. And still wasn't that far ahead in the popular vote. Said lunatic is now ahead of Biden in the polls.

But I don't think TRA's quite get how all this works underneath it all. It's a bit like Labour being taken aback by the actual votes at a recent election, having been lulled into a false impression by the chat on Twitter. Women are talking in real life. Carefully and quietly but still discussing and questioning.

One word, Alba. Yes there's lots of scaremongering, and some people are getting sucked in but a lot of what is being claimed simply isn't true which is why the arguments all fall apart when placed before real scrutiny such as the courts, political committees and academia. And anyone interested enough who looks into it soon discovers that. Despite all the bluster in what 6/7 years now the gender critical movement has not had one clear win and if anything has only bolstered the structural implementation of trans rights. Just look back at old threads on here, AEA vs EHRC was going to be a game changer, Keira had stopped trans healthcare for young people and prosecutions were sure to follow, the 2021 Olympics would be the tipping point as trans women swept up medals. All washed away like sand because the movement was never that strong. There's never been more than a couple of hundred people come out for it unlike the thousands who have come out for trans rights, no-ones really prepared to go to jail or face any real consequences like those involved in other causes are, mostly it's just a big whinge by usually quite privileged people who seem to have a lot of time on ther hands and just isn't relevant to the majority of people's lives.

And in that time the dominance of right wing men in the movement has shifted the argument, as I'm sure they intended. It's not longer Victoria Peckham talking about women's refuges but blustering Spectator columnists ranting about woke left wing mobs dominating universtities, terrorising right wing academics and tearing down statues. That's what the right wing press are interested in talking about now.

And finally when talking about how this works on the ground - seriously, what do think younger feminists make of Bindel accusing them all of being stupid and not worshipping her enough or creepy middle aged men like Glinner hectoring them about their sexuality? How would you have reacted to that at their age? How do think the majorty of LGB people, many of whom have called themselves Queer for decades, feel about a bunch of straight people accusing them of eing part of a paedophile plot. Seriously, do you not realise how this looks to the younger generations, and that dismissing them as woke blue haired idiots is doing nothing but alienating the exact demographic the gender critical movement needed to win over to be successful.

Trans rights is a vote winner amongst the young
Pressed "Post" on my last response and then saw this corker in your next line. The young are sooo well known for getting off of their arses and voting, aren't they!

By the way, in the Yougov research, even the young don't think that an intact male should be in a women's changing room.

Perhaps you should get out of your Twitter echo chamber and out into the real world. Men calling themselves women is a joke to most people.

Oh dear barley:
Yet here you are - on this little insignificant corner of the internet obsessively posting lengthy posts, full of inaccuracies, slander after slander and being repeatedly owned by so many knowledgable articulate women - a community of women standing up for all women.

Pretending that it's a tiny group of GC people when there's an explosion of ordinary citizens who have finally understood what's being done and are speaking out against the extreme trans ideology.

Your obsessive posts suggest you don't actually believe that the GC movement is failing - precisely the opposite. That's why you're here repeatedly - desperately flailing around trying to make some mud stick.
But it's not working as no matter how many times you repeat a lie, it never makes it true. We have all the receipts.

Again, you seem (like many TRA's) to not understand the women 'on the ground' so to speak. Not the people on here who are knowledgeable about what's going on, or the 'young feminists' (bit ageist really - are you presuming that the women on here aren't young? It's a common misconception by anti-woman posters who also tend to assume wrongly that everyone here is also middle class, white and straight). You've overlooked the 'ordinary' women. The ones who haven't been aware of the discussion. The ones who have been recently thinking 'but I don't understand what JKR said that was wrong' or 'why are the School introducing 'gender neutral' toilets?'. The ones who are coming onto this board in increasingly numbers and who are angry.

Gender ideology only targeted the young for indoctrination. That's why there was such a push for changes to School policies. Easy to handwave away the 'old women' and sell an idea of being 'inclusive' and 'special'. Again, this will be the downfall of the anti women movement. What once was cool becomes very passe quickly. I've heard parents talking already about their teens eyerolling over genders/pronouns/cancel culture.

In a few years, something else will be the next big thing and this period in time will be looked upon rather as a curiosity. It will be studied for causes along the same lines as the Salem Witch trials (was it ergot poisoning? Was it peer pressure? Who knows?).

Seriously, do you not realise how this looks to the younger generations, and that dismissing them as woke blue haired idiots is doing nothing but alienating the exact demographic the gender critical movement needed to win over to be successful.

I do actually, having teens myself and knowing plenty of them by extension. In my children’s college/school - both huge, big city education providers there is ONE “trans” person - a young girl who identifies as a boy. Her parents are watchfully waiting and have allowed no long term changes or medication. I am so very confident that this is not a long term issue because I see and hear teenagers, real ones, in real life, every day, not social media - the ones coming up behind the captured generation, and they are having none of it! It’s just not “cool” anymore. These social contagions never do stick because the next generations take care of it simply by wanting to be as different as possible to their sad, embarrassing parents. These youngsters are going to save us all from this nonsense

And by 'one word, Alba' do you mean the Alba Party? I doubt very much that you are a Scottish woman, in that case.

Indeed LondonWolf. And when you are surrounded by young people you know that they're not a hive mind. They are very scared of social disapproval so are careful of what they say and where, but as those of us older know, irrational beliefs instilled via bullying and intimidation never last. They are resented, hated and dismissed - initially in secret with those you trust and eventually out loud in public.

Oh, and regarding 'queer' - I've met very few gay or lesbian people who aren't horrified by its use. Too many of them had it screamed or shouted at them to be able to feel able to reclaim it. Some may feel empowered by it being reclaimed but that's far from universal.

It’s just not “cool” anymore. These social contagions never do stick because the next generations take care of it simply by wanting to be as different as possible to their sad, embarrassing parents.

Yeah see the lesbian and gay movement for details. Oh ...

It never was cool, outside of a couple of lefty schools, just like being gay or lesbian was never cool in the 80s, or even now, my son says homophobic bullying was rife at his school. I'm sure some of the faddishness will die down but what will be left is a generation for whom trans people are completely normal, who have trans mates, and who have far bigger concerns like climate change of economic precarity.

In many ways trans acceptance is already way beyond LGB acceptance in the 80s and things are only going in one direction - almost every day there is another massive trans success story from countries granting increased rights to winning major awards. It would have been unthinkable a couple of decades ago, trans people will never be forced to live in the shadows again.

@Waitwhat23

Oh, and regarding 'queer' - I've met very few gay or lesbian people who aren't horrified by its use. Too many of them had it screamed or shouted at them to be able to feel able to reclaim it. Some may feel empowered by it being reclaimed but that's far from universal.

I've met very few gay or lesbian people

My guess is you could end your sentence there. As someone who is part of the LGBT community I can confirm it is very common, people have called themselves Queer for a long time. Queer As Folk was first broadcast in 1999, Queer Eye in 2003 - it was so normalised that even mainstream mass market TV shows used it in their titles. You have no idea how many people are both horrified and deeply angry about straight people now claiming the word represents some kind of paedophile plot - Queer people have been here before, we remember.

My guess is you could end your sentence there.

How presumptious. And wrong.