Gender nonsense will be the Tories secret weapon

[bellinisurge]

To my mind, the only way the Tories can get themselves out of their self made mess is to shine a light on gender woo woo in the Labour Party. I'm guessing that was behind Wes Streeting's tentative "maybe we shouldn't say burn the witch all the time".
How can they not see how vulnerable they are when Liz Truss has become a more appealing prospect for women's rights.
Jesus.

You know women's rights is far bigger than you not liking trans people don't you?

Imagine being someone who pops up on this board frequently (always just to plop down a tedious little waggy finger comment and then disappear) and yet seemingly hasn’t managed to acquire any kind of grasp on the broad and complex issues facing women and children, instead coming out with this simplistic and unintelligent nonsense.

But there can’t be rights for women only if the definition of women
Includes men. How can that not be the case?

@Outlyingtrout

You know women's rights is far bigger than you not liking trans people don't you?

Imagine being someone who pops up on this board frequently (always just to plop down a tedious little waggy finger comment and then disappear) and yet seemingly hasn’t managed to acquire any kind of grasp on the broad and complex issues facing women and children, instead coming out with this simplistic and unintelligent nonsense.

Advanced search offers considerable entertainment

Genderism harms women's rights but women clearly have all sorts of rights it doesn't affect, and for most people, most of the time, those rights (to work, healthcare etc) are more important in their day to day lives.

Right, but those unaffected rights are not women's rights. They are rights that everyone has. That doesn't mean they're not valuable and important of course. But it does mean that they're not women's rights.

As an analogy, my local swimming pool (still) has women's sessions and general sessions. Of course women can and do swim in the general session. But just because there are women making use of that session doesn't make it a women's swimming session.

I was a Labour Party member until recently and I quit over this. I didn't vote at the last election. They have, with a few individual exceptions who are not being supported by the leadership, been completely captured by this ideology, ironically one of the most conservative belief systems to have arisen in the UK in my lifetime. If they don't get some adults back in the room soon, they can fuck off, as far as I'm concerned.

You know women's rights is far bigger than you not liking trans people don't you?

It's not about not liking trans people - some people who have a trans identity are female. Regardless of the fact that they choose to present themselves in the world as their idea of what a man is, I include them in my advocacy for women's rights because they are women.

What I want to be sure of when we talk about women's rights and policies that impact women is that we are actually talking about wome, not women AND a subset of males who want to be treated as women.

most of the time, those rights (to work, healthcare etc) are more important in their day to day lives.

Yes. Like knowing you can request a female only heath care professional and confidently get one. Like having a single sex toilet and where needed, shower facility, knowing they are in fact single sex.

@CorrBlimeyGG

You know women's rights is far bigger than you not liking trans people don't you? What is Liz Truss' voting record on employment rights, benefit cuts, cuts to public services and healthcare? They all affect women far more than any trans woman will.

Yes, we know this. But there are plenty of people who will focus on the issues of employment rights, benefit cuts, cuts to public services & healthcare because they are directly impacted by these themselves.

Only women are negatively impacted by self-id & the erasure of women's rights. This is MY priority so the Labour Party will not get my vote again until they hear what women are saying about this.

@bellinisurge

The Democrats in the US will have the same problem. Everyone likes to be nice and kind and supportive and liberal minded. But when you start to explain, with real examples, how selfID has already made it easier for predatory men to access women in vulnerable situations, it all falls over.

Not that much of a problem given Biden's resounding election win on the back of the most pro-trans rights platform ever pursued by a US presidential candidate.

Trans rights is a vote winner amongst the young, and no-one else really cares, if the Tories pursue an anti-trans agenda as an electoral strategy they'll end up a laughing stock like Alba and completely alienate the upcoming generations they so desperately need. So I kind of hope they do lol.

"The young" seem to think that re-tweeting something they agree with is the same as getting off their arse and putting a cross on a voting slip.

Describing Biden's victory as "resounding" must be a special, new definition of the word. "Resounding" is the number of seats the Conservatives won vs Labour in December 2019.

I'm hearing similar things coming out of America ahead of the mid terms. It used to be considered a fringe issue but it's now no longer possible to ignore and it could become pivotal in the red vs blue - it might not but it could.

If I was a Tory advisor - and I'm not - I'd milk it for all it was worth. Even with all that has gone on I'd put a tenner on the Tories (possibly without Boris).

Does anyone else here think Cor is a Mumsnet agent employed to keep us all engaged on a thread?

I always thibk posts celebrating the erasure of womens rights that end with “lol” say so much

I’m sure Cor & Barley will be able to explain how the Loudon rapist shit show in the USA is totally nothing to do with allowing men or in this case teenage boys to identify as female & access single sex spaces

"Resounding" is the number of seats the Conservatives won vs Labour in December 2019.

Their policy was still self ID back then, so hardly a vote loser. Things not looking so bright for them now though - the culture wars are backfiring.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

I always thibk posts celebrating the erasure of womens rights that end with “lol” say so much

I’m sure Cor & Barley will be able to explain how the Loudon rapist shit show in the USA is totally nothing to do with allowing men or in this case teenage boys to identify as female & access single sex spaces

I dont think they have any interest in explaining awkward hate facts like that case. Its so tiresome to face reality when you can lecture women on how they should SERVICE MEN BEEEE KINNNDDDDD!!!!!!!

I always thibk posts celebrating the erasure of womens rights that end with “lol” say so much

Another Tory government would be an absolute disaster for women's rights - or at least the rights most women care about - decent benefits, housing and healthcare, maternity rights, pay gap monitoring, access to reproductive healthcare, the stuff that actually has a massive impact on mostly working class women's rights. I barely know a single woman who gives two figs about trans inclusion, but I know a lot who are terrified of this Government and any future Tory election win.

I think that girl child in Louden county give a fig?

Are we getting another lecture on what working class women care most about?

Because… none of us have any idea? None of us are working class? None of us grew up working class?

Have we got a definition yet of what is ‘working’ class?

I grew up on a council estate so I don’t need a lecture about working class ppl

The other thing is that as per the Denton document, it was a completely deliberate strategy by TRA to do everything under the radar. The actual plan was to make sure that women didn’t know how their rights were being targeted until it was too late

That happened in other countries but it didn’t happen here because women here got wise to it. Every day posters come on here saying they had no idea what it all meant, they thought it just meant be kind to a handful of deeply dysphoric ppl not the abolition of all womens single sex spaces to accommodate men who identify as women (sometimes not when full time)

Even not when!

@Theeyeballsinthesky

I grew up on a council estate so I don’t need a lecture about working class ppl

The other thing is that as per the Denton document, it was a completely deliberate strategy by TRA to do everything under the radar. The actual plan was to make sure that women didn’t know how their rights were being targeted until it was too late

That happened in other countries but it didn’t happen here because women here got wise to it. Every day posters come on here saying they had no idea what it all meant, they thought it just meant be kind to a handful of deeply dysphoric ppl not the abolition of all womens single sex spaces to accommodate men who identify as women (sometimes not when full time)

I do enjoy how people think a boring document put out by a law firm that probably no-one ever read until gender critical people picked up on it was some masterclass secret strategy document despite the fact it was published years after legislation was passed granting trans rights. It's pure David Icke, find some think tank report somewhere no-one read and declare it to be a masterplan for global domination.

The actual plan was to make sure that women didn’t know how their rights were being targeted until it was too late

And this is the biggest GC self own ever - the idea that these law changes which predominantly took place in 1979, 1999, 2003 and 2011 were so secret that nobody even realised they had happened until 2017. They've had such a devastating impact on the lives of women, and yet women didn't even notice it had happened for nearly four decades insome cases lol. That's why none of this stuff is a vote winner. No-one cares except a couple of thousand obsessives on social media.

Shining a light on Labour in relation to this is irrelevant if the Tories don't show they are going to do something about it. Not just talk about but actually DO something.

I won't vote Labour for this reason however currently I don't trust the Tories either.

To say it means that THERE'S NO WOMEN'S RIGHTS just seems silly.

Not at all. If there are rights specific to women, you have to have a closed, ie exclusionary, definition of women. If you include men in the definition of women, or indeed vice versa, there is no longer such a thing as women's right to equal pay, for example, or to equal representation in the workplace. You can reach 50% of women on company boards by having half the men identify as women. Discriminating against a pregnant employee is no longer sex discrimination, because men can get pregnant. (Luckily pregnancy is a protected characteristic in its own right.) And obviously no right to single-sex spaces and activities.

Clearly this is an issue for people on here. I don't wish to belittle anyone's opinion but i'm not sure this is going to be the key issue that the next election will be won and lost on. The next election will likely be won and lost on many of the usual issues: the economy, trust in politicians (this could be a big issue next time); healthcare; housing; education; the environment.

Sorry to intrude here, but I'm really not sure the strongly held views of a few people posting on here necessarily reflect those of the country at large.