Gender nonsense will be the Tories secret weapon

[bellinisurge]

To my mind, the only way the Tories can get themselves out of their self made mess is to shine a light on gender woo woo in the Labour Party. I'm guessing that was behind Wes Streeting's tentative "maybe we shouldn't say burn the witch all the time".
How can they not see how vulnerable they are when Liz Truss has become a more appealing prospect for women's rights.
Jesus.

@barleybadminton

You and your ilk are flailing. I see it all the time. On Twitter especially when some of your most notorious and aggressive advocates are quietening and turning their attention to other political matters - see LOJ, they know it’s a lost cause. See also the police who are having to quietly withdraw their attempts to prosecute for “hate speech”, the investigative podcasts, the steady increasing in the dropping of Stonewall by multiple high profile organisations, the mainstream discussion now where once it was hidden and people were too fearful to speak up, JKR has helped to wake up millions, Posie Parker who even my 18 year old teen and his mates have heard of and follow. Even here, there was a time when a thread such as this would have been fairly evenly split but now just has one or two die hards like yourself, even when they’re posted on the main boards. Sure you’ll be thrown a golden globe or two but it’s all downhill from here for you and I for one couldn’t be happier.

And please don’t bother whining about PP receiving financial support/bribes from US right wing/fundamental Christian groups. I hear she’s suing anyone who says this, so…

[quote LondonWolf]@barleybadminton

You and your ilk are flailing. I see it all the time. On Twitter especially when some of your most notorious and aggressive advocates are quietening and turning their attention to other political matters - see LOJ, they know it’s a lost cause. See also the police who are having to quietly withdraw their attempts to prosecute for “hate speech”, the investigative podcasts, the steady increasing in the dropping of Stonewall by multiple high profile organisations, the mainstream discussion now where once it was hidden and people were too fearful to speak up, JKR has helped to wake up millions, Posie Parker who even my 18 year old teen and his mates have heard of and follow. Even here, there was a time when a thread such as this would have been fairly evenly split but now just has one or two die hards like yourself, even when they’re posted on the main boards. Sure you’ll be thrown a golden globe or two but it’s all downhill from here for you and I for one couldn’t be happier.[/quote]
Yes @LondonWolf! Applauds!!

Women (and men) are absolutely sick of this crap. High profile idiots who are spouting all the genderwoo stuff on Twitter are getting completely ratio'd.

The Emperor Has No Clothes!

I'm no longer convinced that the Tories care less about women's lives than the opposition groups. I look at the Labour Party and see a really sexist, intolerant organisation.

You know women's rights is far bigger than you not liking trans people don't you? What is Liz Truss' voting record on employment rights, benefit cuts, cuts to public services and healthcare? They all affect women far more than any trans woman will.

You've completely misunderstood the issues. Trans women themselves will not affect women at all if they continue to be seen as trans women who are a subset of males and if they are treated as such. What will affect women is the pretence that they now are women. This creates a situation where we no longer have language to describe women, to collate data about inequalities or to understand the experience of women who are being discriminated about across the globe on the basis of their biology. The expectation that people remember a large list of their body parts (vagina, cervix, ovaries) in order to access the appropriate healthcare will also lead to the death of some women. There is nothing that can affect women more than saying there no longer are women.

Oh and despite the shit show that is out current government I sadly see no-one else I can vote for now that labour, lib dems and green have shown that they do not care about protecting women's rights. I can't vote for a party which displays its misogyny with pride.

Agree RoyalCorgi, that's the problem.
The gradual erosion of women's rights, in place of what is in reality more mens rights. I just can't fathom why so many people can't see what is happening. Maybe It's the underlying threatening message (directed at women) present in the zeitgeist that if you air any doubt or concern around the removal of women's rights that you somehow, "don't like trans people" are transphobic and should be burnt at the stake.
NOT the fucking issue, this is about women's reality in life being removed with very little opposition. Wake up people!!

Women (and men) are absolutely sick of this crap. High profile idiots who are spouting all the genderwoo stuff on Twitter are getting completely ratio'd.

They are, there is quite the angry mob on twitter at the moment. The thing is they don't change anyone's minds, quite the opposite. All that ranting against Girl Guides, or Oxfam or John Lewis does, and accusing them of all manner of horrors, is completely alienate them from the gender critical cause. More and more people, including Wes Streeting are now acknowledging the viciousness and bullying that comes from some parts of gender critical social media, and all these targets have friends, colleagues, often people with significant power.

Every new target brings things closer to point of critical mass when the gender critical movement has attacked so many different groups and individuals, and often so baselessly, that nobody will want to associate themselves with it. And that's really reflected in a lot of people I know, who did have some sympathy a few years ago but have seen how extreme and nasty the movement has become and now condemn it outright. Don't mistake twitters pile ons as victories, all that's happening is the GC movement is making more and more enemies.

Every new target brings things closer to point of critical mass when the gender critical movement has attacked so many different groups and individuals, and often so baselessly, that nobody will want to associate themselves with it.

You are deluded. Exchange Gender Critical for TRA in that paragraph and you’ll be onto something.

As one of the early responses said and has been repeated, there are no women's rights if men can be women.

The thing is hypothetically this makes sense. If the lurid predictions were true of men pretending to be trans and entering women's spaces in huge numbers, or shortlists for women being dominated by men then of course this would be a concern. But nowhere where trans inclusion has been pursued has this happened. It's just scare mongering, the same way people scare monger about all the devastating possible impacts if we admit refugees, or raise taxes on the rich or allthe other things people use worse case and unlikely scenarios to try and prevent progressive policies.

In practice - and we know what that looks like because some places have had strongly trans inclusive policies for years - trans rights have not impacted on women's rights. Women still have rights in Ireland, New York and Norway. It's demonstrably laughable to try and claim otherwise. Trans inclusive policies have been barely noticed by women and that's why it's not an election winner - no-one cares because in practice they know this won't really affect their lives no matter how many hypothetical portents of doom come from the gender critical movement.

@LondonWolf

Every new target brings things closer to point of critical mass when the gender critical movement has attacked so many different groups and individuals, and often so baselessly, that nobody will want to associate themselves with it.

You are deluded. Exchange Gender Critical for TRA in that paragraph and you’ll be onto something.

It's not 'TRAs' fighting for their jobs because they've been so vile about trans people on social media.

It's not 'TRAs' fighting for their jobs because they've been so vile about trans people on social media.

I think you’ll find that one of the reasons for that is because we don’t employ the same vicious tactics that TRA do. We don’t generally believe that those holding alternative opinions ought to be prevented from earning a living and providing for children etc. Hardly anything to boast about.

@barleybadminton

Women (and men) are absolutely sick of this crap. High profile idiots who are spouting all the genderwoo stuff on Twitter are getting completely ratio'd.

They are, there is quite the angry mob on twitter at the moment. The thing is they don't change anyone's minds, quite the opposite. All that ranting against Girl Guides, or Oxfam or John Lewis does, and accusing them of all manner of horrors, is completely alienate them from the gender critical cause. More and more people, including Wes Streeting are now acknowledging the viciousness and bullying that comes from some parts of gender critical social media, and all these targets have friends, colleagues, often people with significant power.

Every new target brings things closer to point of critical mass when the gender critical movement has attacked so many different groups and individuals, and often so baselessly, that nobody will want to associate themselves with it. And that's really reflected in a lot of people I know, who did have some sympathy a few years ago but have seen how extreme and nasty the movement has become and now condemn it outright. Don't mistake twitters pile ons as victories, all that's happening is the GC movement is making more and more enemies.

I take your point to an extent, but do you not think that the opinions on Twitter may make their way to the polling stations? Or that the disgusting behaviour by TRAs on Twitter has alienated the decent trans people? Or that people who know that biology and sex based rights and language matter do not also have friends, colleagues with significant power?

Ultimately, none of us here know for sure how any of this in going to pan out, but what I would say is that hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

It's not 'TRAs' fighting for their jobs because they've been so vile about trans people on social media.

So who has lost their job for being vile to trans people? And are they GC?

@DialSquare

It's not 'TRAs' fighting for their jobs because they've been so vile about trans people on social media.

So who has lost their job for being vile to trans people? And are they GC?

Yes, it’s been a while since anyones livelihood was threatened for not being on the trans juggernaut. I think some people who are pretending the law is what they want it to be, not what it actually is are still slyly “reporting” people to their employees but not getting very far since GC views are protected by law, thanks to Maya.

@barleybadminton

As one of the early responses said and has been repeated, there are no women's rights if men can be women.

The thing is hypothetically this makes sense. If the lurid predictions were true of men pretending to be trans and entering women's spaces in huge numbers, or shortlists for women being dominated by men then of course this would be a concern. But nowhere where trans inclusion has been pursued has this happened. It's just scare mongering, the same way people scare monger about all the devastating possible impacts if we admit refugees, or raise taxes on the rich or allthe other things people use worse case and unlikely scenarios to try and prevent progressive policies.

In practice - and we know what that looks like because some places have had strongly trans inclusive policies for years - trans rights have not impacted on women's rights. Women still have rights in Ireland, New York and Norway. It's demonstrably laughable to try and claim otherwise. Trans inclusive policies have been barely noticed by women and that's why it's not an election winner - no-one cares because in practice they know this won't really affect their lives no matter how many hypothetical portents of doom come from the gender critical movement.

Short lists for women have been set up to protect women from the discrimination they face as women. If 3% are trans identifying biological males that is, in my opinion and most other women's opinions, far too much. You don't get to be the arbiter of what is an OK amount of women's rights to give away. The number of people identifying as trans women in prisons is rising steadily so your accusation of scare mongering does look rather silly.

We in fact know that trans rights have led to there being no female only rape groups and centres in some areas, to biological males being given access to women to assualt in prison, to the removal of women's rights to call themselves women and to women being hurt in sport or exclude from some sports (because their places were taken by males). It's only laughable if you don't think these things matter. So it's helpful for you to nail your misogynistic flag to the mast. Those of us who actually care about women's rights know that portents of doom are accurate and that, as you demonstrate here, those who seek to belittle that do so because they don't consider the damage that this has done to women as worthy of concern.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a4451978-If-there-was-an-election-tomorrow-who-would-you-vote-for?msgid=114198646#114198646

This thread is interesting.

@LondonWolf

It's not 'TRAs' fighting for their jobs because they've been so vile about trans people on social media.

I think you’ll find that one of the reasons for that is because we don’t employ the same vicious tactics that TRA do. We don’t generally believe that those holding alternative opinions ought to be prevented from earning a living and providing for children etc. Hardly anything to boast about.

demonstrably laughable

That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

If the lurid predictions were true of men pretending to be trans and entering women's spaces in huge numbers, or shortlists for women being dominated by men then of course this would be a concern.

It doesn't matter if men are "pretending to be trans" or actually believe they can change sex, they are all male and should stay out of women's spaces and services. I do not differentiate between those 2 types of people - "genuine" or "pretending" is irrelevant, they are men. Just men.

How many women need to be impacted in order for this to be an issue? It seems like you are saying that as long as women are losing out in small numbers then it justifies allowing men to self-ID as women. If it is the case that either way, a small number of people will be negatively impacted by either the passing or rejection of self-ID, why can't that small number be the males who choose to identify as their idea of a woman?

Decisions have consequences. When a man makes the decision to present to the world as his idea of a woman, he should accept that one of the consequences of that decision may be he might not feel comfortable continuing to use men's single-sex services and facilities, but it does mean he has a right to women's facilities and services.

Remember, these men who feel entitled to use women's spaces and facilities have chosen the identity that they feel entitles them to that access. Women to not decide to be women, we are born women.

But nowhere where trans inclusion has been pursued has this happened

Please ask the women who are incarcerated with Barbie Kardashian in Ireland if women objecting to self-ID is scaremongering. Or the young women who missed out on their places in sporting competitions because of the likes of Lia Thomas and Laurel Hubbard. Can you put a number on what you feel is an acceptable amount of women who lose out or suffer as a consequence of male entitlement dressed up as a stereotype of what a woman is?

That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I think it does. I think if you asked the average New Yorker if women's rights no longer exist in the city, or even better if women no longer exist since trans inclusive laws were introduced over a decade ago they would laugh at you.

As a working class lifelong Labour voter and (now ex-) member I would like to be able to vote for them again. However, I am a woman and I have a daughter, so there's currently zero chance of me doing so.

Due to the outright misogyny of the lib dems, and the misogyny and safeguarding issues in the greens, my alternatives are SDP, communist party, or the tories. Neither the SDP nor the communist party field a candidate in my constituency, so that leaves the tories. So that's who I'll vote for until Labour stop their silly pretence at holding such abhorrent, bourgeois, luxury beliefs and remember who they're supposed to represent.

@barleybadminton

That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I think it does. I think if you asked the average New Yorker if women's rights no longer exist in the city, or even better if women no longer exist since trans inclusive laws were introduced over a decade ago they would laugh at you.

Maybe, love, but that isn't what 'demonstrable' means.

The thing is hypothetically this makes sense. If the lurid predictions were true of men pretending to be trans and entering women's spaces in huge numbers, or shortlists for women being dominated by men then of course this would be a concern.

It doesn't need to be 'huge numbers' of men doing this. Just one man either pretending to be trans or genuinely believing in his own cross-gender identity can affect dozens or hundreds of women.

The presence of Karen White or Barbie Kardashian in a women's prison can have an effect on all the women in that prison.

One Laurel Hubbard or Lia Thomas affects all the women who have to compete against them. It could potentially affect all the women in that sport if that male person starts breaking records with results which are impossible for a woman to acheive.

Yes exactly!1 man is too many! Why the fuck should women who have had to fight for bloody centuries to get rights give up any of them to make men feel better? What is in it for women for example to allow men to identify their way into programmes designed to improve the representation of women in politics? Or to take prizes designed for women writers? To elbow their way into support groups for menopause ? And that’s before we even get to refuges, prisons and rape support services

Thete is no benefit at all for women to allow men into these spaces.

There are some very deluded individuals on this thread. "A couple of thousand obsessives on social media"? 😂 The tide is turning. Among my (young, leftwing, largely working class background) friends there isn't a single one who believes in gender woo nonsense. My teenage nieces are similarly un-brainwashed. This isn't just an issue for a few middle-aged, middle-class dinosaurs hoarding rights.