the breast milk trade

[Bindelj]

Dear all, I am investigating the commercial breast milk trade in the UK. I wrote this about the situation in Cambodia 4 years ago (www.truthdig.com/articles/an-example-of-capitalism-literally-milking-the-poor). Horrific. The way things are going we will be seeing desperately poor women in the UK being coerced into selling milk. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of this issue? If so, I am on [email protected] or please respond here. Many thanks.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes
Just as women fed an aristocrat's baby instead of their own

This did not happen. Wet nurses in historical times fed both their own child plus the aristocrats child. That is why you often read about “milk sisters/brothers” which denotes two children the same age breastfed by the same woman but with no family relationship.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Prem babies don't consume very much, either. We're not talking 500ml a day here.

Again, women would be selling excess milk. They would not be depriving their own child in any way. The buyers, just like the recipients of donated milk, would be getting milk from more than one other mother.

@Helleofabore

And having grown up milking cows, as well as then expressing my own milk, I think that the comparison is absolutely clear.

It might be uncomfortable to some people to think about, but it is the reality of the situation.

Then you’d know too that for a calf whose cow mother died, it is quite possible to have another cow with a calf successfully feed her own calf plus the orphaned calf without depriving her own calf or endangering her life or health.

@OhHolyJesus
Men should be told no

This has fuck all to do with men. The primary buyers of breastmilk are women. Mothers who cannot breastfeed. It’s not men. And if you don’t want men to buy breastmilk for body building, then that supports my argument for regulating the sale of breastmilk. Since we have through regulation stopped the sale of alcohol to under 18s, we can quite easily through regulation stop the sale of breastmilk to men. Can also regulate bodybuilding as a sport by classifying breastmilk as a type of doping, or illegal supplement just like we have done with blood transfusions. Athletes of all sorts used to get blood transfusions to enhance performance until it was regulated to be prohibited as a type of doping. No reason why we cannot have commercial sale of breastmilk and through regulation prevent it from being sold to bodybuilders.

@OhHolyJesus
If the milk goes to a baby which is wasn't made for them there should be a priority system which allows it to go to those who need it most, based on the benefits. This already happens through the hospitals and units which manage breast milk donation.

Yes that is appropriate system for giving away breastmilk for free. It should be on a needs based assessment whether a mother gets free breast milk for her baby. But this should not apply to buying breastmilk. .

Then you’d know too that for a calf whose cow mother died, it is quite possible to have another cow with a calf successfully feed her own calf plus the orphaned calf without depriving her own calf or endangering her life or health.

And I also know how that may or may not actually work out, and that there IS potential for the cow's calf to then suffer deprivation because of it.

Are you now a cattle expert too? How cool is that!!! And not just academically, but a practical cattle expert!

@OhHolyJesus
why is a man's sperm considered more valuable of he has a degree?

How the fuck would I know? That only came up in the case as the woman seeking a sperm donor wanted him to be an educated man. It was her requirement and the donor in question lied to her about having a degree from a prestigious Kyoto university. The woman also wanted her donor to be Japanese and he also lied saying he was when he was actually Chinese. So he lied in order to have sex with her. Which makes him a rapist.

Of course, if a woman wants to feed her child formula because that’s better for her lifestyle, why does she have to stop her breastmilk? Why can’t she decide to pump and sell it?

Struggling and failing to see how this scenario could ever arise unless there is price fixing.

This thread is being hugely derailed with a unnecessary point scoring. To finalise and provide clarity:

Empress - you said
"Just because we have different opinions and experiences, that doesn’t make any of us completely ignorant."

I agree. Earlier I was, as you were also called, ignorant. It doesn't bother me particularly, you didn't notice it then, perhaps you missed the post. It just amusing that you say 'difference experiences don't make us ignorant' but you didn't say this when the same accusation was made to someone other than yourself.

Clearly we disagree on a number of issues raised by this thread. I have no desire to discuss the same points over and over, I am not hearing any new arguments and I think your Japanese sperm adoption story lends nothing but deflection.

I agree with the OP - many of the comments can be compared to the argument in support of prostitution and here is the breast milk salesperson equivalent of the 'happy hooker' for this thread:

"the 24-year-old mum started to donate the milk to women who were struggling to produce milk on their own - until men began to approach Lamprou for her milk....

She said: “I then started to get some enquiries from men. It started with men who were interested in bodybuilding. They say it is good for building muscle mass...But then I started to get enquiries from men with fetishes.”

After realising there was quite a large market of men looking for breast milk, Lamprou decided to start selling the two litres of milk she was producing a day - and began charging male buyers €1 (89p) per ounce.

And the mum has made £4,500 so far on the nearly 500 litres of breast milk she has sent to strangers.

a side business she admits is “quite addictive.”

She is also on “a website where men can approach me for the milk.”
And while she isn’t exactly sure what the men do with the milk once they buy it, it doesn’t bother her.

As for the fetish usage of her breast milk, Lamprou said: “It was a bit strange at first giving breast milk to a guy with fetishes but as long as it is just that and not asked to show any part of my body, I don’t mind at all. I am open-minded.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/mother-selling-breast-milk-men-online-body-builders-fetishes-rafaela-lamprou-cyprus-a8237161.html?amp

I'm sure she doesn't feature in the wank bank of the man with the fetish buying her milk, at all, and the breast milk donations she no longer makes, in favour of selling it are not missed either.

@Helleofabore

Then you’d know too that for a calf whose cow mother died, it is quite possible to have another cow with a calf successfully feed her own calf plus the orphaned calf without depriving her own calf or endangering her life or health.

And I also know how that may or may not actually work out, and that there IS potential for the cow's calf to then suffer deprivation because of it.

Are you now a cattle expert too? How cool is that!!! And not just academically, but a practical cattle expert!

The point is that it is entirely possible for one cow to feed two calf’s just like it is entirely possible for one woman to feed two babies. Which you agree with. I’m no expert, but neither are you if you persist in thinking that it is categorically impossible for a cow or woman to produce more milk than is needed by one infant.

[quote EmpressCixi]@OhHolyJesus
why is a man's sperm considered more valuable of he has a degree?

How the fuck would I know? That only came up in the case as the woman seeking a sperm donor wanted him to be an educated man. It was her requirement and the donor in question lied to her about having a degree from a prestigious Kyoto university. The woman also wanted her donor to be Japanese and he also lied saying he was when he was actually Chinese. So he lied in order to have sex with her. Which makes him a rapist.[/quote]
No it doesn't make him a rapist.

The contemptible person here is the mother- not the man.

@KimikosNightmare

Of course, if a woman wants to feed her child formula because that’s better for her lifestyle, why does she have to stop her breastmilk? Why can’t she decide to pump and sell it?

Struggling and failing to see how this scenario could ever arise unless there is price fixing.

I can see how it might be attractive. When you’re home with a newborn, there isn’t really any job outside the house or during normal working hours that you can do to earn a bit of extra cash. I can envision quite a few mums who want to feed their baby formula because that means their DH can do night feeds as well as them or because they like the ability to measure exactly how much baby is eating.

But then would be happy to sit and read a book while pumping whilst baby naps in the day and then sell that breastmilk to earn a few hundred quid on the side while helping out a mother who prefers breastmilk but can’t do it.

@KimikosNightmare
The contemptible person here is the mother- not the man.

Are you serious? So this case involves a married woman with an infertile husband but they both want children. Sadly Japan highly restricts access to artificial insemination as an infertility treatment. So why is this woman “contemptible” for wanting to have a baby?

Thousands of women in the U.K. with infertile husbands can go to clinics and pay for artificial insemination....are these women contemptible too? For what exactly? For not accepting their husband is infertile and resigning themselves to being childless?

The only contemptible thing this woman did was put the baby up for adoption because the baby’s sperm donor lied about who he was. But that was caused by him lying to have sex with her, which is in fact rape. And many women do not want to keep a pregnancy that is the result of rape...are they contemptible for not keeping their rapists’ baby? Does this also apply to women who are raped and have terminations?

@OhHolyJesus

You only prove my point. The sale of breastmilk is already happening in the U.K. and it is completely unregulated. It can be sold by anyone to anyone for any purpose.

Regulation could easily include banning the sale to men for fetish or body building purposes. It could also make it illegal doping in the bodybuilding sport just like blood transfusions were.

Why should all the mothers who want to buy breastmilk for their babies miss out because a few bad men want to buy it too? A blanket prohibition would disproportionately punish women because it would make it illegal for a woman to sell her milk and illegal for another woman to buy it.

[quote EmpressCixi]@OhHolyJesus
why is a man's sperm considered more valuable of he has a degree?

How the fuck would I know? That only came up in the case as the woman seeking a sperm donor wanted him to be an educated man. It was her requirement and the donor in question lied to her about having a degree from a prestigious Kyoto university. The woman also wanted her donor to be Japanese and he also lied saying he was when he was actually Chinese. So he lied in order to have sex with her. Which makes him a rapist.[/quote]
His degree made him more attractive to her and her husband, as a father to a potential child. The fact he lied made him less desirable. Same for his nationality.

A higher education qualification adds value, in this woman's perception in particular. She didn't chose an uneducated man, one reason why she chose him was his qualification. I imagine that Education is valued highly in Japan and she wanted, or she thought she was, securing 'intelligent' DNA and was so disappointed when the truth was revealed she considered abortion as the child she was carrying was considered 'imperfect' or 'not up to standard'. It's beyond ridiculous (and pretty horrific actually) but I'm guessing she thought her child would be stupid and she couldn't face that as a future prospect so she have birth to the child she had had the child adopted. (This was a sibling to their existing child and I imagine very confusing for this child. )

This man's stock went up with a false claim, it went down when the truth was revealed. The sex was consensual so no, he isn't a rapist. A liar? Yes.

Screened and checked sperm donations can be bought in the US with images of the man, his education and hereditary history. For all the money now spent on lawyers and court fees I would wager it would have been far cheaper, and less stressful, to have gone a different route. Lesson learnt for this couple, and for the lying, cheating man too.

So this case involves a married woman with an infertile husband

The husband wasn't not infertile. Have you not read the actual story. He had a hereditary condition they wanted to avoid being passed onto a child. They already had a child, he was the father, therefore he is not infertile.

It may or may not be similar in some ways, but one thing is clear - the justifications on this thread for the commercialisation of breast milk are almost word for word the justifications for legal and normalised prostitution.

And surrogacy

Sorry, did not have time to read the whole therad but will come back later!
In Germany I know that there is/used to be a Breastmilk buy/sell Facebook group called HumanMilk4humanBabies.
Have no personal experience in the trade, only with giving away breastmilk for free to friends.
But I know that there are facebook groups with the same/similar name in many countries.

I do know that there have been many breastmilk banks in (mainly former East) Germany and they used to pay the pumping mothers a little bit of money. (probably comparable to the amount You get for donatig blood, I would suppose but don't know for sure.)
The local hospital organises breast milk donations but only for women (donors and recipients) who have a baby in the NICU and there is no money involved.

I’m no expert, but neither are you if you persist in thinking that it is categorically impossible for a cow or woman to produce more milk than is needed by one infant.

I have not said it is not possible. In either case.

I am saying, that why would a mother deprive her child deliberately of an extended period of their breast milk ( unless they were a) being exploited financially and b) giving a small amount as a donation for a limited time.

It was YOU who brought up cows becoming a feeding source for other calves as some kind of gotcha for selling breastmilk for profit.

[quote EmpressCixi]@KimikosNightmare
The contemptible person here is the mother- not the man.

Are you serious? So this case involves a married woman with an infertile husband but they both want children. Sadly Japan highly restricts access to artificial insemination as an infertility treatment. So why is this woman “contemptible” for wanting to have a baby?

Thousands of women in the U.K. with infertile husbands can go to clinics and pay for artificial insemination....are these women contemptible too? For what exactly? For not accepting their husband is infertile and resigning themselves to being childless?

The only contemptible thing this woman did was put the baby up for adoption because the baby’s sperm donor lied about who he was. But that was caused by him lying to have sex with her, which is in fact rape. And many women do not want to keep a pregnancy that is the result of rape...are they contemptible for not keeping their rapists’ baby? Does this also apply to women who are raped and have terminations?[/quote]
Yes I'm serious.

The woman is despicable. Your analogies are false. She is contemptible for treating her daughter as damaged goods.

I don't know what Japanese law is but in UK people tell all sorts of lies in order to have a sexual relationship, such as lying about their age, pretending to be single when they are married, or claiming to be more wealthy than they really are and that is not rape.

@KimikosNightmare

In 2019, in the U.K. a man was successfully convicted of rape because he lied about having a vasectomy in order to get consent to sex from a woman. They had had sex twice, so he was convicted of two counts of rape.
“"Section 74 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 says a person consents if he or she agrees by choice and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice," said Sue Matthews, the senior crown prosecutor who put the case together. "By lying about the vasectomy he deprived that particular victim of making an informed choice."

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-49127545

I can see how it might be attractive. When you’re home with a newborn, there isn’t really any job outside the house or during normal working hours that you can do to earn a bit of extra cash. I can envision quite a few mums who want to feed their baby formula because that means their DH can do night feeds as well as them or because they like the ability to measure exactly how much baby is eating.

But then would be happy to sit and read a book while pumping whilst baby naps in the day and then sell that breastmilk to earn a few hundred quid on the side while helping out a mother who prefers breastmilk but can’t do it.

Mixed feeding exists. And again, so do freezers!

A husband can very easily use defrosted breast milk to do a night feed. No need to make up formula unless there is a specific reason to hold on that stored breast milk.

And strangely, breast milk storage bags allow people to measure exactly how much baby is eating.

So, again. Exploiting a mother who needs the money.

@Helleofabore

No, I did not introduce cows into the thread, in fact I dislike the comparison as it is dehumanising. Have a re-read through the thread, it wasn’t me.

You said I am saying, that why would a mother deprive her child deliberately of an extended period of their breast milk ( unless they were a) being exploited financially and b) giving a small amount as a donation for a limited time.

Again, you are wrongly assuming that the mothers own child would be deprived if the mother were to sell or donate excess breastmilk. Historically, with wet nurses, the wet nurses own child was not deprived but grew up as a milk brother or sister to the aristocrats child that she also nursed. Women giving excess milk away or donating it usually do so in even smaller quantities that the amount needed to entirely feed another infant, do again, he child is not deprived in any way. In addition, many mothers of twins do successfully feed both babies and neither baby is deprived.

Your fear of deprivation is a constructed narrative. It did not usually happen historically, doesn’t usually happen now, so why would it happen in the future?

Regulation could easily include banning the sale to men for fetish or body building purposes.

So no man ever would pretend to be a mother with a poor starving baby who needs breastmilk to indulge his fetish? Ok.

How would your imagined regulatory structures safeguard women, ensure no fetishists were benefitting, and no babies were adversely affected? I'd love to hear how you think this would work.

It could also make it illegal doping in the bodybuilding sport just like blood transfusions were.

There are no studies that support its effects either way. I doubt blood tests would reveal it, it's not HGH or anabolic steroid. It wouldn't be prevented for use in training anyway. No competition assessors monitors what a body builder competitor eats or drinks before an event. You could have it banned from being brought into the premises before an event but they could drink it in the car park beforehand.

Genuinely I don't think it makes a difference, it appears to be fake news spread between body building clubs. These men tend to be singled minded (or obsessed), competitive, risk-takers (HGH can cause heart attacks) and are not doing any research to establish whether it breast milk does anything to increase your performance. They could also pose as new mothers desperate to ensure the best the breasts of women can produce goes to their imaginary babies.

This did not happen. Wet nurses in historical times fed both their own child plus the aristocrats child. That is why you often read about “milk sisters/brothers” which denotes two children the same age breastfed by the same woman but with no family relationship.

I am aware of the term. I am also aware of how difficult it can be for breastfeeding mothers of multiples to feed more than one baby and to do so fairly, and how hard mothers of twins find it in general. I find it rather likely that when money and an explicit class system comes into it, it's the employer's baby that is put first. Although it's very romantic to imagine the lord's child and the wet-nurse's baby growing up as equals, I doubt they did as a rule. Mothers of multiples are exhausted because they meet both infants' needs! But it's much easier if you prioritise one baby over the other, and one gets left to cry... So guess which one that would have been?

I can envision quite a few mums who want to feed their baby formula because that means their DH can do night feeds as well as them or because they like the ability to measure exactly how much baby is eating. But then would be happy to sit and read a book while pumping whilst baby naps in the day and then sell that breastmilk to earn a few hundred quid on the side while helping out a mother who prefers breastmilk but can’t do it.

Yes, you're doing a lot of envisaging. They could breastfeed their own babies and read a book while doing that instead and then sleep when the baby is sleeping. Or breastfeed and pump milk so their husbands can do a night feed. Or pump milk so they can see how much their baby is eating... Pumping is worse than breastfeeding. Much worse. This scenario of the happy formula-feeder who pumps breastmilk for money makes no sense.

This reminds me of the ever-more convoluted stories on prostitution threads about how some woman could earn loads of money from home as a domme. Just sayin'.