the breast milk trade

[Bindelj]

Dear all, I am investigating the commercial breast milk trade in the UK. I wrote this about the situation in Cambodia 4 years ago (www.truthdig.com/articles/an-example-of-capitalism-literally-milking-the-poor). Horrific. The way things are going we will be seeing desperately poor women in the UK being coerced into selling milk. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of this issue? If so, I am on [email protected] or please respond here. Many thanks.

No, I did not introduce cows into the thread, in fact I dislike the comparison as it is dehumanising. Have a re-read through the thread, it wasn’t me.

So you didn't say ' The point is that it is entirely possible for one cow to feed two calf’s just like it is entirely possible for one woman to feed two babies. '?

Which I then pointed out that it can back fire and cause that the cow's calf to suffer. You then agreed you were not an expert and so did I.

You said "I am saying, that why would a mother deprive her child deliberately of an extended period of their breast milk ( unless they were a) being exploited financially and b) giving a small amount as a donation for a limited time."

Again, you are wrongly assuming that the mothers own child would be deprived if the mother were to sell or donate excess breastmilk. Historically, with wet nurses, the wet nurses own child was not deprived but grew up as a milk brother or sister to the aristocrats child that she also nursed. Women giving excess milk away or donating it usually do so in even smaller quantities that the amount needed to entirely feed another infant, do again, he child is not deprived in any way. In addition, many mothers of twins do successfully feed both babies and neither baby is deprived.

Your fear of deprivation is a constructed narrative. It did not usually happen historically, doesn’t usually happen now, so why would it happen in the future?

You keep seeming to try to push 'breastmilk seller's' infants onto formula to be able to produce this milk. You also seem to be consistently ignoring that breast milk can be stored for extended the breast milk feeding for that child.

And why would you deprived your child of extending out their breast feeding?

You speak about 'historical' instances. Freezers were not invented at that time. So, again, why would someone chose to deprive their child of extending access to breastmilk to sell their milk if they were not being exploited financially?

@Helleofabore
Yes if you exclusively feed your baby pumped breastmilk, you’d know how much they drank. But if you were breastfeeding you would not know. That was the scenario I was referring to.

Secondly, why is it exploitation if a woman sells her breastmilk, but not exploitation if she is only allowed to give it away for free?

Most women generally need to earn an income, so it follows that most mothers need some money to live. So why is it that selling your breastmilk is exploitation but other ways of earning money are not exploitation?

Exploitation isn’t merely the act of earning money you need. Exploitation happens when people are a) forced into it and no one is advocating that at all, or b) not paid a fair price for whatever they are selling be it goods they create or labour, or c) prohibited from valid means to earn money.

The scenario you are advocating is one that is exploitation of women.

Firstly, because women can and do safely produce excess breastmilk without depriving their own child, but you want to prohibit them from using it as a source of income. You are preventing women from a perfectly valid means of earning money.

Secondly, you would further exploit these self same women by then encouraging/socially pressuring them to donate for free their breastmilk as you recognise there are valid uses for it such as feeding premature babies. But you think it immoral for any woman to be compensated for producing breastmilk.

I don’t think £0 is a fair price for breastmilk at all. I think prohibiting women from selling breastmilk is exploitation of women by barring them from a perfectly safe means of earning income...which everyone needs like it or not.

And it is also very well known that mothers of today have many challenges to breastfeeding and continuing breastfeeding to the point that they choose to stop, rather than situations forcing the decision.

Empress you seem to hand wave all this away in your attempt to justify another person exploiting a mother for financial gain.

We are not talking about donating a small amount to premature babies. You are the one talking about mothers substituting formula for breast milk (short or long term) so they can pump for sale.

@Helleofabore
why would someone chose to deprive their child

No one is choosing to deprive their child. There is no deprivation to their child by choosing to sell or donate excess breastmilk. That is your wrong assumption that breastmilk is a finite resource limited to 1 woman can only produce enough for 1 baby which is simply a false assumption.

@Alayalaya

I couldn’t give the stuff away! Tried to donate but the nearest place that would accept it was over a hundred miles away. It didn’t occur to me to offer it privately - I thought nobody in their right mind would feed their baby milk from an un-screened person who could have god knows what diseases.

Honestly I think the private sale of breast milk needs to be banned because it’s too dangerous. No baby should be put at risk by being fed milk that hasn’t been screened for infection and drugs.

I could have written this post.

I had a fair stash after I night weaned DS as my boobs never got the message. Hospitals wouldn't take it as I needed to be pre- screened (fair enough) and giving it away privately was a no no as I wanted it to go to babies, not perverts or bodybuilders.

If I ever have another I will definitely try and donate through a hospital or the UKAMB, I never thought it was that important, but for some premature babies it can literally save lives.

Firstly, because women can and do safely produce excess breastmilk without depriving their own child, but you want to prohibit them from using it as a source of income. You are preventing women from a perfectly valid means of earning money.

And again, that excess breastmilk can go into the freezer to extend the length of time that mother is feeding breast milk to their own child.

What about that is 'not' depriving that child of the breastmilk?

Secondly, you would further exploit these self same women by then encouraging/socially pressuring them to donate for free their breastmilk as you recognise there are valid uses for it such as feeding premature babies. But you think it immoral for any woman to be compensated for producing breastmilk.

Yes, because excess breastmilk can be stored. There should be no reason that a mother should be put in the position of prioritising another woman's infant over hers. If she wishes to donate a small amount needed for premature and ill babies for a limited time in that situation, particularly milk for new borns, sure. Putting a mother in the position of choosing finances over feeding their child is exploitative. Not sure why you think it is not.

@Helleofabore

And it is also very well known that mothers of today have many challenges to breastfeeding and continuing breastfeeding to the point that they choose to stop, rather than situations forcing the decision.

Empress you seem to hand wave all this away in your attempt to justify another person exploiting a mother for financial gain.

We are not talking about donating a small amount to premature babies. You are the one talking about mothers substituting formula for breast milk (short or long term) so they can pump for sale.

Similarly, you seem to think pressuring mothers to donate breastmilk for free while prohibiting them from selling the exact same amount of breastmilk is not exploitation, when it most certainly is exploitation of women. Whatever breastmilk a woman has extra will differ by woman, but no woman is going to give away or sell more than they have which is extra...by their decision.

The example I gave was not a mother substituting formula for breastmilk so she can pump for sale. The example I gave was a mother who prefers formula for her baby for her own reasons, it’s her choice right? She knew from the start, she wants to formula feed her baby.

And then also does not mind pumping a bit to earn some extra cash on the side.

What is wrong about that? She’s not “depriving” her baby unless you happen to think that formula is not a perfectly fine choice for infant feeding? But most of us, myself included, think that formula or breastmilk is the mothers choice and fed is best. Not breast is best or formula is best...both are equally good.

@Helleofabore
There should be no reason that a mother should be put in the position of prioritising another woman's infant over hers.
But she would not be in this position. We are talking about women with extra breastmilk. Their baby is #1 and all fed and cared for, but there I extra breastmilk and the question is should these women be allowed to sell it or only give it away for free?

If she wishes to donate a small amount needed for premature and ill babies for a limited time in that situation, particularly milk for new borns, sure.
I’m fine with that too. Very charitable and worthy thing. But what is so wrong about selling it instead of donating? Is it that immoral for a mother to profit from her extra breastmilk?

Putting a mother in the position of choosing finances over feeding their child is exploitative.

But they would not be in this position. Again, their child is 100% fed but they have extra milk going spare. Mothers who donate are not choosing another mothers sick child at the expense of their own child. The same would apply to mothers who sell, they are not going to do so at the expense of their own child. And in fact, the ability to sell their extra breastmilk may mean the mother can afford extra things for her child she could not otherwise afford. By requiring that she can only give away her extra milk for free, you are causing deprivation to her child.

That is your wrong assumption that breastmilk is a finite resource limited

From personal experience, breastmilk IS a finite resource and can be stored for future use.

It is you who seem to be set on handwaving that away. You keep coming up with scenarios even where the mother is formula feeding to provide this milk, like these.

When you’re home with a newborn, there isn’t really any job outside the house or during normal working hours that you can do to earn a bit of extra cash. I can envision quite a few mums who want to feed their baby formula because that means their DH can do night feeds as well as them or because they like the ability to measure exactly how much baby is eating.

(By the way, just how much milk do you think mother's of newborns produce? )

Of course, if a woman wants to feed her child formula because that’s better for her lifestyle, why does she have to stop her breastmilk? Why can’t she decide to pump and sell it?

Honestly I think the private sale of breast milk needs to be banned because it’s too dangerous. No baby should be put at risk by being fed milk that hasn’t been screened for infection and drugs.

Exactly why commercial sale of breastmilk should be allowed. Regulation of it would mean that companies buying breastmilk would be required to screen it, pasteurise it, safely store it, and safely provide it to buyers so they can be assured their infants are safely fed. The primary market for breastmilk is other mothers. Not men.

@Helleofabore
By the way, just how much milk do you think mother's of newborns produce?

I produced a lot. I pumped as well as breastfed and had a big freezer stash by the time I returned to work. By weaning, I had a huge freezer stash that all defrosted in the kitchen sink and then was washed down the drain. Such a waste.

Of course, I know not all women produce a lot of milk like I do, but we do exist. Just like there are women who cannot produce any milk, there are women who produce just enough, and women who produce more than enough. To have a system by which the women who produce more than enough can sell the excess to women who don’t produce any or enough would result in equality of access for mothers to breastmilk for their babies. Instead of leaving it up to luck.

All the women I knew who had zero intention of breastfeeding found it personally unfeasible or distasteful.

So why would any of them have got set up with establishing pumping? It's hard work. One woman ended up having to pump short-term because her baby was premature and really needed the milk. She couldn't wait to give it up and switch to formula. Oh, and I have never managed to read while pumping. Not even when using a hospital grade electric Medela Symphony. I don't think the posture necessary to accommodate the machine would have even permitted holding a book.

What kind of approaches are you planning to get happy formula feeders to pump milk for money? Professional salespeople recruiting on the postnatal ward?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes
How long ago was this? I often read while pumping. They even have completely hands free pumps now that you can use while walking about or lying down.

I produced a lot. I pumped as well as breastfed and had a big freezer stash by the time I returned to work. By weaning, I had a huge freezer stash that all defrosted in the kitchen sink and then was washed down the drain. Such a waste.

Next time, use it during weaning. It works well when preparing baby rice. If you're more ambitious than that when it comes to cooking, you can make yogurt and ice-cream.

www.momjunction.com/articles/nutritious-recipes-with-breast-milk-for-babies_00685854/

In any case, just who will be arbitrating and making sure any mother is still feeding their own infant breastmilk while making money selling the breastmilk meant for their own child?

Who will be ensuring the health of the seller's child while they are focused on selling their milk?

[quote EmpressCixi]@PurgatoryOfPotholes
How long ago was this? I often read while pumping. They even have completely hands free pumps now that you can use while walking about or lying down.[/quote]
Sorry, I am not willing to say what year I was dealing with a premature baby.

What kind of approaches are you planning to get happy formula feeders to pump milk for money? Professional salespeople recruiting on the postnatal ward?

God no. No sales people of any kind should be on a post natal ward. All I’m saying is we should not make it illegal. I should ask you, how do you plan to enforce a ban on the sale of breastmilk? Police kicking in doors and arresting mothers for daring to sell instead of donate their extra breastmilk?

EmpressCixi
Breastmilk and formula are NOT equally good and everyone knows it. But breastfeeding can sometimes be hard or impossible and not everyone is comfortable doing it. Those are the reasons women choose to use formula instead. Which is fine. Breastmilk is better but not to the extent that it trumps mum’s mental and physical health and again, for some women it just doesn’t work and formula is essential. This mythical group of women you’re talking about who prefer to formula feed their own baby but don’t mind the enormous hassle/potential uncomfortableness (physical or psychological) of pumping for someone else’s baby just don’t exist.

The example I gave was a mother who prefers formula for her baby for her own reasons, it’s her choice right? She knew from the start, she wants to formula feed her baby.

And then also does not mind pumping a bit to earn some extra cash on the side.

If you are pumping and formula feeding, wouldn't you just pump and bottle feed your own baby?

For $1 per ounce, minus formula costs, what are you left with? I realise it depends on how much volume of each is being pumped and consumed, and I haven't done the math, but I find it difficult to believe there are many women who would pump for others whilst formula feeding and that you would be making that much profit. I'm willing to believe that there might be very very few women who would do this but not that it would earn you that much money. It would have to pour out of you on demand in minutes. That can happen sure but how many of those women want to sell it?

I produced a lot. I pumped as well as breastfed and had a big freezer stash by the time I returned to work.

Good for you. I on the other hand struggled to produce milk and also found when pumping extra when my milk supply steadied and I was producing enough, that I had constant mastitis and other issues.

By weaning, I had a huge freezer stash that all defrosted in the kitchen sink and then was washed down the drain. Such a waste.

Why did you destroy your breastmilk? Did you freezer break down? Why not keep feeding breastmilk to your child for as long as you had it?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

All the women I knew who had zero intention of breastfeeding found it personally unfeasible or distasteful.

So why would any of them have got set up with establishing pumping? It's hard work. One woman ended up having to pump short-term because her baby was premature and really needed the milk. She couldn't wait to give it up and switch to formula. Oh, and I have never managed to read while pumping. Not even when using a hospital grade electric Medela Symphony. I don't think the posture necessary to accommodate the machine would have even permitted holding a book.

What kind of approaches are you planning to get happy formula feeders to pump milk for money? Professional salespeople recruiting on the postnatal ward?

I thought this was such an unlikely scenario, but absolutely showed the exploitation that was possible. It is very clear.

Next time, use it during weaning.

I must admit I found that most surprising?

@Diggersaursarethebest
We will just have to agree to disagree, formula is a perfectly valid choice and many women do in fact choose it even though they are quite capable of breastfeeding. Social stigma for using formula is what causes women to feel a need to say “I had to use formula”. I have several friends who chose formula because they felt breastfeeding was gross, but they would never say that in public.

Women who use formula but would be happy to pump milk for sale do in fact exist and have been selling their milk over social media.

Women who use formula but would be happy to pump milk for sale do in fact exist and have been selling their milk over social media.

Thus depriving their child from the better option of their mother's milk.

I totally understand formula feeding. I have absolutely no issue with mother's choosing to formula feed or to mix feed or to breast feed.

I do find your scenarios to be either misguided or to show the effect of how these mothers are being exploited.

A technical point about pumping extra milk to sell / give away when you've a new born; your really not supposed to pump more than baby takes unless you're deliberately trying to increase supply for baby only with a lactation consultant supporting through power pumping, certainly within the first 6 weeks.

I was pumping for a very tiny baby and had bad advice in hospital. I ended up with over supply which led to a very gassy green pooed baby for several week and awful burns on his bottom that nothing would help till they'd calmed down. (Something to do with the balance of sugars and fats. First milk, colostrum, is very thick and it adapts slowing to the baby's needs) Also lots of difficulties with feeding and attachment as then my letdown was too strong for him, resulting in a lot of upset for both of us and feeding refusals. I could only feed lying down for the first 3 months. I block fed to calm them down which then led to mastitis, but you also then risk killing your supply.

Because it very much a supply and demand situation and everywoman is different this idea of commercially selling milk being touted to expectant mothers (via word of mouth if not actively advertised) could be really problematic physically.

Breastfeeding support is woeful as it is. There are other unexpected health issues that can occur post baby, and In a similar way to surrogacy, all this entirely ignores those health needs and potential issues.