the breast milk trade

[Bindelj]

Dear all, I am investigating the commercial breast milk trade in the UK. I wrote this about the situation in Cambodia 4 years ago (www.truthdig.com/articles/an-example-of-capitalism-literally-milking-the-poor). Horrific. The way things are going we will be seeing desperately poor women in the UK being coerced into selling milk. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of this issue? If so, I am on [email protected] or please respond here. Many thanks.

@Alayalaya

I couldn’t give the stuff away! Tried to donate but the nearest place that would accept it was over a hundred miles away. It didn’t occur to me to offer it privately - I thought nobody in their right mind would feed their baby milk from an un-screened person who could have god knows what diseases.

Honestly I think the private sale of breast milk needs to be banned because it’s too dangerous. No baby should be put at risk by being fed milk that hasn’t been screened for infection and drugs.

I hated breast feeding. I still wouldn't have accepted your breast milk for the reasons you say. I don't know how anyone can think that would be better than using formula.

The arguments in favour of regulating the sale of breastmilk look suspiciously like the arguments in favour of decriminalising the buying of sex. The difference is that there's a very vulnerable 3rd party, the baby, who needs protecting at all costs. Formula is safe and affordable there is no need at all for parents to buy breastmilk. Donating milk to SCBU is another matter entirely.

@KimikosNightmare

Instead we should be giving adequate breastfeeding support to all mothers who want their babies to receive their milk and putting an end to all practices which separate mother and baby or otherwise interfere with the breastfeeding relationship

See comment below.

Does this just mean we need to take the negative spin off formula?

So take the “negative spin” off formula by reducing or withdrawing support for mothers who want to breastfeed their babies and separating mothers and babies as much as possible?

No, @DaisiesandButtercups, I'm not sure why you'd think that's what I meant.

Formula is a great option for women who don't breastfeed - the reasons for which are diverse.

Many women who would like to breastfeed but can't and report feelings of shame or failure because "breast is best"

It would be interesting to know whether those feelings were part of the reason why a new mother would buy milk from some randomer. I expect that some of them think rancid milk sent in the post is "better" than formula.

My comment was to KimikosNightmare

I agree with you vivariumvivariumsvivaria that formula is the best option if a mother doesn’t want to breastfeed and has a healthy term baby. In NICU donor milk reduces the likelihood of a baby developing necrotising enterocolitis.

So take the “negative spin” off formula by reducing or withdrawing support for mothers who want to breastfeed their babies and separating mothers and babies as much as possible?

No stop painting formula as something so unthinkable that women would choose to buy breast milk.

As vivariumvivariumsvivaria I can't see why you would choose to put the spin you have on her comment.

@KimikosNightmare

I’m not sure why you chose to put the spin you did on my comment.

Breastfeeding is not the norm in the UK, we are a formula feeding country. Formula feeding is hardly unthinkable, or spun negatively it is what the majority are doing.

I believe mothers who want to breastfeed should have all the support they need to do that in a bottle/formula feeding culture. Regardless of feeding method I don’t think mothers and babies should be separated.

Happy to help. There was a thread on this last year with links, evidence and case studies after a uk company was trying to get into this ‘market’ www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/4333391-Company-selling-human-breast-milk-for-profit-female-exploitation

Regardless of feeding method I don’t think mothers and babies should be separated

I dont get it either

No one has said about removing support or separating mother and baby

I believe mothers who want to breastfeed should have all the support they need to do that in a bottle/formula feeding culture. Regardless of feeding method I don’t think mothers and babies should be separated

No- one said this. The thread isn't about this.

*Alayalaya

I couldn’t give the stuff away! Tried to donate but the nearest place that would accept it was over a hundred miles away. It didn’t occur to me to offer it privately - I thought nobody in their right mind would feed their baby milk from an un-screened person who could have god knows what diseases.

Honestly I think the private sale of breast milk needs to be banned because it’s too dangerous. No baby should be put at risk by being fed milk that hasn’t been screened for infection and drugs*

Same experience here, and totally agree.

@DaisiesandButtercups

When breastfeeding mothers donate milk to the local NICU, the donating mother often has a home visit from the specialist infant feeding neonatal nurse who advises on sterilisation and handling of milk. The mother has blood tests for diseases which can be passed on through breastmilk, every batch of donated milk is tested for harmful bacteria.

To buy milk from strangers online sounds like a far too risky affair! That is before even considering the highly dubious ethics.

No, selling mother’s milk should not be permitted in the UK. We don’t allow the exploitation of the poor by selling their blood nor should we allow it with milk. If it is used as a means out of poverty then it will surely happen in circumstances where it could be damaging to the mother or baby. A mother’s milk is perfectly formulated for her own baby, the age, the time of day, the health status. The supply and demand is actually quite carefully balanced and so encouraging mothers to donate can in some cases actually cause problems (oversupply and all that goes with it) for the dyad which will only resolve when expressing or pumping is phased out.

Instead we should be giving adequate breastfeeding support to all mothers who want their babies to receive their milk and putting an end to all practices which separate mother and baby or otherwise interfere with the breastfeeding relationship.

This sounds rather naive? I’m squarely middle clsss with plenty of support and many of my friends had SOOOO much more milk than I did. It took me two expressing sessions on each side to express the volume they did in 5 mins. So if you don’t have enough, or are unable to feed directly (I had just about enough feeding directly) then I completely sympatbise with wanting to use breast milk.

In particular there is clear data on breast milk for prems reduces instances of necrotising fasciitis (sp?), If I had a prem baby I’d happily pay over the odds for breastmilk. The questions are should this be donation only or should payments be allowed, and should it be regulated /businesses that test and ensure health standards allowed. Adequate breastfeeding support alone will not remove the demand.

This isn't only about breast milk for prem babies, or even for babies.

Read the articles linked above.

It's about breast milk for mothers who couldn't BF or can't (perhaps because, like in America, they have to go back to work really early) - but also it's about people like body builders and other health nuts, buying breast milk to drink, themselves, as they think it's good for them.

Yes, there's a discussion to be had about breast milk for babies and how, for example, it can save lives if donor milk is used in NICU.

But, this if we're talking about the commercialisation of breast milk, then just focusing on prem babies is obscuring the reality of what's going on here.

This industry is about exploiting women's bodies for profit - and it will be disproportunately, impoverished and vulnerable women's bodies - being used to make what is essentially a cash crop. Like a cow, or a goat, if you like.

I read an article a few years back about a company that encouraged women to supply their milk, talking about how it could really help babies - but they didn't make such a song and dance about their other customers - adults buying and drinking their milk as a health suppliment. Would the mothers have been so willing to sell their milk if they'd been aware it wasn't all going to babies? Possibly not.

Breast milk fetish is a thing, also, and if human milk is available on a simple commercial basis, you can't really stop pervy men buying it for their wanking / sex game obsessions.

The bottom line is, should women's bodies be used for commercial profit like this?

To say they have a choice is exactly the same argument as sex work. For some, OK, yes. For many, probably not. Especially if the breast milk is traded internationally.

Completely agree newname

And, if we're talking babes, this kind of stuff goes hand in hand with surrogacy.

We're looking at a world where people rich enough can buy a woman's womb, shop around for their choice of eggs and sperm (remember, though, it's easy to get sperm out of a man. Getting eggs out of a woman is much more invasive and risky), and then buy an ongoing supply of milk for the babies they have paid for and seperated from the mother they wree born to.

All (except the genetics), often supplied from impoverished women living in poverty, thousands of miles away. But between the buyers and the sellers are intermediaries with glossy brochures, sanitising the whole business.

We're already in a world where poor brown women carry white babies for rich people, risking their health and living in baby-factories, essentially.

There's an eye opening and harrowing audio recording of a talk on the Filia website about surrogacy. (Julie Bindel was one of the speakers).

We need to be so, so wary of companies that want to normalise technologies or practices based on exploitaiton of women's bodies, and of our reproductive system.

Be extremely wary when you hear about such things being sold to us as progressive or about helping others.

America is not only the home of tech giants, but also a place where women are fighting for basic reproductive and human rights. Mixing this with profiteering is very risky for women. And where America goes, we tend to go to, unfortunately.

[quote OhHolyJesus]A slight tangent I realise, but I've been interested to read about Biomilq, the supposed best alternative to formula. It's manufactured using milk cultures from cows udders. I am waiting for them, or someone else, to try to create the human form using milk ducts from amputated breasts.

www.biomilq.com/[/quote]
It mus be human epithelial cells they are using, why would you expensively culture bovine cells when there's tons of cows milk cheapily available to make into formula?

And you don't need to amputate a breast to get breast cells, a small biopsy would be sufficient. And the use of human tissue samples is very heavily regulated in the UK because of the Alder Hey scandal. The US not so much.

And, if we're talking babes, this kind of stuff goes hand in hand with surrogacy

Indeed. It's an obvious market

*The bottom line is, should women's bodies be used for commercial profit like this?

To say they have a choice is exactly the same argument as sex work. For some, OK, yes. For many, probably not. Especially if the breast milk is traded internationally.*

I agree. Commercial contracts for surrogacy in the US do have breastfeeding/pumping clauses. One woman's story included how she couriers her milk on dry ice across state, despite her very serious post-birth health issues and difficult recovery. She was meeting the demands of her contract but with Grace, she was very, very proud of her milk.

And you don't need to amputate a breast to get breast cells, a small biopsy would be sufficient.

Thank you for explaining that, I can't pretend I understand it...I don't see how Biomilq is 'superior' to formula.

When I read about this as a new scientific development and the marketing spin about 'wanting better for our babies', the claim that it is not as good as breast milk was right at the bottom of the article, almost like a disclaimer (which was practically in direct conflict with all the other text in the article).

I'm very suspicious, there seem to be some people looking for new ways to exploit women.

I was alluding to hospital practices separating mothers and babies, lack of maternity leave, incarceration, custody arrangements and surrogacy when I said that mothers and babies should not be separated. All of these things will make breastfeeding more difficult or impossible and alternatives will be needed. Mothers and babies should be respected and protected as a dyad in law and practice whatever feeding method a woman chooses.

The commercialisation of human milk will likely result in separating mother and baby more than usual. Women in poverty will likely be held in terrible conditions as they have been so that rich westerners can rent their wombs, there it is easy to imagine that the focus will be on pumping milk rather than what is best for mother and baby. This too may include mother and baby being separated for a period of time to pump the required amount of milk. Worse perhaps these women will suffer the same fate as dairy cows. Made pregnant, baby sold, extract as much milk as possible for a period of time, get the woman pregnant again, sell the baby, sell the market milk repeat. It is horrendous.

When I was younger I used to really enjoy dystopian novels.

Now I have a government which gaslights me and is dismantling my rights and a host of commercial companies exploiting women's bodies for all their commodities and individuals telling me that I'm a bigot for saying "hang on a minute, WHAT?"

If I keep saying "no, thank you" I'm going to land up on The Wall.

See you all there.

Empress

That's a lot of words all written to obscure what will happen. The same as used to happen when women's milk was a commodity. Women underfed their own breastfeeding babies or weaned them earlier, in order to feed their employer's baby. The cobblers' children went barefoot, the wet nurse's baby went hungry.

Premature babies at especial risk of necrotising fasciitis can be given donor milk from a hospital milk bank.

Other families where breastfeeding is not an option can use formula.

I do not actually believe it is usual for parents to rear their babies on breastmilk bought over FB. As I remember from pumping, newborn babies start out drinking roughly 500ml a day. By six months, it's more like one litre. Imagine obtaining that, each and every day. Pumping isn't that productive for female humans - we haven't been breeding ourselves to be compatible with milking technology - so anyone doing this would probably be obtaining milk from different women, all with babies born at a totally different time, and producing milk intended for a baby of their own age.

If anyone is doing all this, they do not need to be encouraged, they need to be told to stop being so damn stupid and to use formula.

I bet the customers are actually body builders and health food obsessives.

If it was easy to sell milk commercially, it's very easy to imagine coercive and controlling partners putting pressure on their partners to produce and sell their milk, isn't it?

Look how busy the relationships board is with women dealing with financially abusive men. How's adding selling breastmilk into the mix going to help? It's not. I know my abusive ex, who was always skint, would certainly have put pressure on me to sell my milk if he'd known it was a thing.

This is about protecting women from being used like cattle.

And perverts, Purgatory.

I had a colleague, a million years ago, who was concerned about her patient who mentioned in passing that she was still lactating. The child was 5.

Red flag for serious issues, so she mentioned in passing about how worried she was for this woman in the staff room.

Older, wiser colleague muttered "it'll be the husband". Cue shocked faces from the rest of the staff room.

Right enough, the poor woman was in a coercive relationship and he was using her for his fetish against her will. He was using her breasts and masturbating at the same time. Fucking hell.

If the older, wiser woman hadn't mentioned it she'd have been sent for scans and tests and they'd all have come back normal. As it was, the right questions were asked and she was linked up with women's aid.

It was a lesson for me. If HCPs don't know about men's deviant sexual behaviour then we miss the chance to ask the right question. Women don't volunteer the information, and if you have no insight into how WEIRD some men are, then you'd never know to raise an eyebrow.

I often think about that woman. I hope she left him.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

And perverts, Purgatory.

I had a colleague, a million years ago, who was concerned about her patient who mentioned in passing that she was still lactating. The child was 5.

Red flag for serious issues, so she mentioned in passing about how worried she was for this woman in the staff room.

Older, wiser colleague muttered "it'll be the husband". Cue shocked faces from the rest of the staff room.

Right enough, the poor woman was in a coercive relationship and he was using her for his fetish against her will. He was using her breasts and masturbating at the same time. Fucking hell.

If the older, wiser woman hadn't mentioned it she'd have been sent for scans and tests and they'd all have come back normal. As it was, the right questions were asked and she was linked up with women's aid.

It was a lesson for me. If HCPs don't know about men's deviant sexual behaviour then we miss the chance to ask the right question. Women don't volunteer the information, and if you have no insight into how WEIRD some men are, then you'd never know to raise an eyebrow.

I often think about that woman. I hope she left him.

I have very mixed feelings about this post.

Yes, I'm 100% with you that there deviant men out there and people need to not be so fucking naive about their existence. And, I'm very glad for this mother that she was (I hope) helped with this situation.

But - seriously, WTF? Why are you implying that mothers who are still BFing their children at 5 are doing it because of perversion?

Although it's unusual in this country, there's absolutely nothing wrong with BFing a 5 year old.

The UK has some of the lowest BFing rates in the world because of ingrained social attitudes towards BFing that often aren't in the interest of the mother or the child.

Are you aware that the World Health Organisation advises that mothers aim to BF all children until AT LEAST 2 years old?

Every family should do what's right for them, but in a global or historical context, people wouldn't bat an eyelid at the idea of a 5 year old having breast milk from their mother. BFing has loads of benefist for a child, even at 5. It's us who have weird attitudes about it.

FWIW, I BF mine until 4 and 5. There are huge numbers of women out there doing this, we just tend not to speak about it publicly because of these kinds of attitudes.