the breast milk trade

[Bindelj]

Dear all, I am investigating the commercial breast milk trade in the UK. I wrote this about the situation in Cambodia 4 years ago (www.truthdig.com/articles/an-example-of-capitalism-literally-milking-the-poor). Horrific. The way things are going we will be seeing desperately poor women in the UK being coerced into selling milk. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of this issue? If so, I am on [email protected] or please respond here. Many thanks.

Why did you destroy your breastmilk? Did you freezer break down? Why not keep feeding breastmilk to your child for as long as you had it?

Because they had fully weaned and no longer needed or wanted breastmilk.

I know plenty of women find the idea of breastfeeding gross and so use formula instead. I don’t have a problem with that in any way. Women should be told the facts about both breast and formula feeding and be supported and respected in the choices they make for themselves and for their babies. What I find unbelievable is the idea that these women who find breastfeeding gross would be happy to pump and then not give that milk to their own baby. I think either they would find pumping equally gross and not do it, or they don’t want to breastfeed directly (from the breast) but are happy to pump and will give that milk to their own baby.

Thus depriving their child from the better option of their mother's milk

Exactly.

Exploitation of women and children. I don't care of the women are choosing to, they're unaware of the exploitation. And the level of bm fetish too. Just as Lib feminism tricks women into thinking that prostitution is work and so perfectly fine as a choice.

Coercion leads to decisions that can be dressed up as choices but are exploitation.

Yes, I have friends who find breastfeeding disgusting. That's fine. However, none of them would find sitting pumping milk more palatable. If they were willing to do that, they'd be giving it to their own babies, as they are aware of the health benefits of breastfeeding.

They choose not to breastfeed because they think the emotional impact of doing something they find disgusting would have a worse effect on the mother-baby dyad and the baby than using formula. Again, that's fine. But why would they pump for someone else's baby, if they thought the disadvantages outweighed the benefits to their own baby?

How much money are you thinking will be offered to these women to make them persevere with pumping when they thought it would be bad for their family to do it for their own baby?

@Diggersaursarethebest

Empress Cixi your reasoning is hilarious. No one is going to ´help out’ another woman’s baby at the expense of there own child unless some seriously unethical economics are involved. Woman formula feed because they can’t breastfeed or pump or because they don’t want to breastfeed or pump. No one is going to pump milk voluntarily and without economic benefit just for that milk to go to another woman’s baby whilst deciding their own baby would be better off formula fed. That’s nonsense.

Actually, there is an american commercial milk donor. She has some kind of "illness"/hormonal imbalance (I forgot what it was exactly) and thus produces incredible amounts of milk. She sells the milk. I saw her in a documentary and she sat on her couch, pumping while her small child sat beside her, drinking from a bottle. I of course do not know if the bottel contained breatsmilk, cows milk oder formula, but there is a difference between breastfeeding and beeing feed the expressed milk from your own mother regarding the specific ingredients of the milk. So expressed breastmilk from your own mother is not as good as if the baby would be breatsfeeding. I of course don't know if she stopped breastfeeding because it interferred with the pumping or if she would have stopped anyway, but yeah, at least anecdotally I know that some people pump AND don't breastfeed their own baby. And this is a seemingly well off woman.

@Helleofabore

Women who use formula but would be happy to pump milk for sale do in fact exist and have been selling their milk over social media.

Thus depriving their child from the better option of their mother's milk.

I totally understand formula feeding. I have absolutely no issue with mother's choosing to formula feed or to mix feed or to breast feed.

I do find your scenarios to be either misguided or to show the effect of how these mothers are being exploited.

Actually you do have an issue with mothers choosing to formula feed because you’ve blatantly said they’re “depriving their child of the better option of their mothers milk”

What I don’t understand is if you truly believe that breast is best and a child being formula fed is being deprived, then why are you supporting a ban on mothers selling their extra breastmilk to other mothers who want to feed their child breastmilk but cannot produce any themselves?

You logic is odd to me. You’re worried regulation won’t stop exploitation of the mothers selling their extra milk, but you have no desire to help other mothers acquire breastmilk to feed their “deprived” babies? No concern for these “deprived” babies when simple regulation could of the sale of breastmilk would result in more babies being fed breastmilk?

@Diggersaursarethebest
What I find unbelievable is the idea that these women who find breastfeeding gross would be happy to pump and then not give that milk to their own baby. I think either they would find pumping equally gross and not do it, or they don’t want to breastfeed directly (from the breast) but are happy to pump and will give that milk to their own baby.

Quite. But you have cut and pasted your own little scenario there. I did not say that women who find breastfeeding gross would be happy to pump milk for sale. You’ve cut and pasted two different comments together to create a Frankenstein of a straw man.

@Helleofabore

Next time, use it during weaning.

I must admit I found that most surprising?

Well, you know, we're all different. Some women can effortlessly pump, and some people's babies are perhaps more enthusiastic about weaning than others? Personally I found getting babies on to purées and solids was a longterm process though, and there was plenty of opportunity to use up any frozen milk.

Using it as the milk in baby meal staples like porridge, cereal and mashed potato seems like an obvious solution though.

Actually you do have an issue with mothers choosing to formula feed because you’ve blatantly said they’re “depriving their child of the better option of their mothers milk”

You have no idea 'actually'. I have stated that I have no problems with formula feeding if that is a choice and there is no breastmilk to be given. I also have no judgement at all on mothers who cannot or chose not to breast feed at all. Despite your attempts to make out that I do.

Many health agencies advocate for the breast feeding to be prioritised.

Why are you ignoring this advice in your scenarios? Or do you simply not agree with these health agencies? And if not, why not?

You’re worried regulation won’t stop exploitation of the mothers selling their extra milk, but you have no desire to help other mothers acquire breastmilk to feed their “deprived” babies?

You are right. I have NO desire to help other mother's to acquire breastmilk to feed their child when it does actually mean that the seller's child is at high risk of being deprived.

Tell us again exactly what regulations are going to be put in place to ensure that a mother does not reprioritise the milk meant for her child to go for financial gain?

Who will be doing the visitations, who will be doing the health checks? And how often?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes
How much money are you thinking will be offered to these women to make them persevere with pumping when they thought it would be bad for their family to do it for their own baby?

Haven’t really delved into what would be a fair price for breastmilk. All I know is that a law making it £0 would be exploitation and that is what a ban would result in. Women with extra breastmilk would be socially pressured to donate it to milk banks for £0 in return and prohibited from selling it.

This is very patriarchal and reflects the thinking breastmilk for other babies is something women who produce extra “owe” to the greater good of society because breastmilk is a common good, then by all means support a ban. But if you think women should have the right to own their breastmilk and thus buy and sell breastmilk commercially, then a ban makes no sense at all

. I have NO desire to help other mother's to acquire breastmilk to feed their child when it does actually mean that the seller's child is at high risk of being deprived.

The risk is actually extremely low. You are fear mongering.

Personally I found getting babies on to purées and solids was a longterm process though, and there was plenty of opportunity to use up any frozen milk.

To be fair, I did too at the time.

@EmpressCixi

. I have NO desire to help other mother's to acquire breastmilk to feed their child when it does actually mean that the seller's child is at high risk of being deprived.

The risk is actually extremely low. You are fear mongering.

Really?

When you’re home with a newborn, there isn’t really any job outside the house or during normal working hours that you can do to earn a bit of extra cash.

@Helleofabore
Tell us again exactly what regulations are going to be put in place to ensure that a mother does not reprioritise the milk meant for her child to go for financial gain? Who will be doing the visitations, who will be doing the health checks? And how often?

Are you seriously suggesting that the ability for mothers to sell extra breastmilk will make more women neglect via starvation their existing children? Why do you have such a low opinion of mothers? And why wouldn’t the normal health visitor checks on baby weight and growth plus usual social services not already cover this highly unlikely scenario where women are going to be sooooo greedy for extra ££££ that they will literally starve their own child?

I have experienced zero social pressure to donate milk to a milk bank, and in the event that a law is passed to stop people preying on postpartum women for breastmilk, there will still be zero social pressure to donate milk to milk banks.

Commodifying women's bodies does not work out for us as a class, and what you are arguing relies on concocted scenarios and appeals to individualism.

@EmpressCixi
You think I’m the one making an irrelevant argument? This is your strawman. You’re the one who invented a group of happily formula feeding women who believe formula is just as good as breastmilk and yet are happy to spend hours pumping breastmilk that they don’t feed to their baby. You cite these women as a reason why the trade in breastmilk should be legal. I’m pointing out these women don’t exist, so we should be talking about actually likely scenarios.

[quote EmpressCixi]@KimikosNightmare

In 2019, in the U.K. a man was successfully convicted of rape because he lied about having a vasectomy in order to get consent to sex from a woman. They had had sex twice, so he was convicted of two counts of rape.
“"Section 74 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 says a person consents if he or she agrees by choice and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice," said Sue Matthews, the senior crown prosecutor who put the case together. "By lying about the vasectomy he deprived that particular victim of making an informed choice."

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-49127545[/quote]
Not the same. Not the same by a million miles.

Quite the reverse actually. This vile woman wanted to get pregnant. She achieved that.

I'm beyond gob- smacked that I'm supposed to feel sympathy for a woman who paid for sex and then rejected a baby simply because the father turned out not to have a degree.

@Helleofabore
Yes. It is low risk that a child will end up deprived if mothers are allowed to sell their extra breastmilk. You’re fear mongering by painting a picture of mothers starving their children in order to make extra money.

[quote Diggersaursarethebest]@EmpressCixi
You think I’m the one making an irrelevant argument? This is your strawman. You’re the one who invented a group of happily formula feeding women who believe formula is just as good as breastmilk and yet are happy to spend hours pumping breastmilk that they don’t feed to their baby. You cite these women as a reason why the trade in breastmilk should be legal. I’m pointing out these women don’t exist, so we should be talking about actually likely scenarios.[/quote]
Nope. I did no such thing.

@KimikosNightmare
I'm supposed to feel sympathy for a woman who paid for sex and then rejected a baby simply because the father turned out not to have a degree.

It wasn’t just that lie. There were other lies he told her to coerce her into sex. Being tricked into sex is a type of rape.

And why wouldn’t the normal health visitor checks on baby weight and growth

The "normal" checks are no longer normal. Sure start centres have been shut down, and the "normal" framework of checks is not happening. I think there is one authority that only does them for babies categorised as especially at risk or with special needs already diagnosed.

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/01/one-in-four-babies-miss-out-on-health-visitor-checks-social-mobility-commission

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I have experienced zero social pressure to donate milk to a milk bank, and in the event that a law is passed to stop people preying on postpartum women for breastmilk, there will still be zero social pressure to donate milk to milk banks.

Commodifying women's bodies does not work out for us as a class, and what you are arguing relies on concocted scenarios and appeals to individualism.

So your experience is the same as every other women’s experience then? Thanks for that window into your narrow brain.

[quote EmpressCixi]@Helleofabore
Yes. It is low risk that a child will end up deprived if mothers are allowed to sell their extra breastmilk. You’re fear mongering by painting a picture of mothers starving their children in order to make extra money.[/quote]
And you are living in a dream if you believe it won't happen.

@EmpressCixi ph 10 post 8. Have you lost track of your own arguments?

• The example I gave was not a mother substituting formula for breastmilk so she can pump for sale. The example I gave was a mother who prefers formula for her baby for her own reasons, it’s her choice right? She knew from the start, she wants to formula feed her baby.

And then also does not mind pumping a bit to earn some extra cash on the side.*

[quote EmpressCixi]@KimikosNightmare
I'm supposed to feel sympathy for a woman who paid for sex and then rejected a baby simply because the father turned out not to have a degree.

It wasn’t just that lie. There were other lies he told her to coerce her into sex. Being tricked into sex is a type of rape.[/quote]
No it is not rape. Lying about how old young/ rich/ successful does not turn consented sex into rape.

Can you really not see the difference in the case you quoted? Well clearly you can't.

This woman and her husband are both despicable. They viewed the baby and indeed the baby's father as objects to buy and then discarded the baby as she wasn"t up to their specifications.