the breast milk trade

[Bindelj]

Dear all, I am investigating the commercial breast milk trade in the UK. I wrote this about the situation in Cambodia 4 years ago (www.truthdig.com/articles/an-example-of-capitalism-literally-milking-the-poor). Horrific. The way things are going we will be seeing desperately poor women in the UK being coerced into selling milk. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of this issue? If so, I am on [email protected] or please respond here. Many thanks.

Lol. So “horrific” and “coerced” and “desperately poor” and “capitalism literally milking the poor” are neither emotive nor hyperbole?

What was it about that article do you think that these terms overstated?

[quote EmpressCixi]@PurgatoryOfPotholes
I don't think first-time mothers can magically identify the warning signs of a baby no longer following his or her growth curve.

There is no magic needed to access this knowledge. It’s very simple and straight forward. So again. You are claiming mothers, especially first time mothers, are too stupid to know if their baby is adequately fed.[/quote]
Oh, don't you worry, I think fathers can be too!

It's not magic, it's maths, and rather a lot of people struggle with maths. I can link you to info on what proportion of the country struggle with functional numeracy if you like. They don't get better at maths while surviving on only three hours of sleep at a time, and whether they do or not, I don't think it's reasonable to expect all parents to graph their child's growth week by week, and gauge whether they are on course. This is why the state is supposed to provide services like that, with the longterm economic aim of having a healthy working population.

You're doing the individualism thing again. I think it's quite "narrow-minded" of you to think all new parents can handle graphs, tbh. My local sure start centre was under no such delusions so they offered literacy and numeracy classes.

@Helleofabore
So we have descended into the realm where you can’t engage with the substance of my arguments or find any fault in my logic, so you decide to attack the way in which I write as a form of deflection and derailment.

Not playing this game tonight. Ciao.

Weight and wet nappies. Any woman can do this. Women are not stupid.

Cross-post.

Good goddess. You think wet nappies and any weight gain is all there is to it?

Good goddess. You've broken my brain

So we have descended into the realm where you can’t engage with the substance of my arguments or find any fault in my logic, so you decide to attack the way in which I write as a form of deflection and derailment.

I have pointed out the faults in your logic all the way through.

I have pointed out that you have also resorted to completely overstating my own statement and building it into something that ended up a straw man argument.

The fact that you tried to accuse me of advocating for that situation is rather offensive so yes, I called you out on it.

Because attributing those beliefs to me was yet another fault in your logic.

You are also now the person telling us that women who cannot recognise that their child is not thriving or understand why are 'stupid'. Incredibly offensive.

I think a quick google probably returned 'nappies and weight gain'. And those of us who have been there with a tiny baby and all the associated issues at 4 am probably remember it all with rather more detail. Graphic, emotionally charged, incredibly detailed detail, in fact.

Ironically, I suspect that any chronic underfeeding incident due to pumping for money would involve the words "my baby was still producing wet nappies gaining weight so I didn't realise she wasn't getting enough milk".

Yes. Fear mongering.

Just before you go then empress, just to clarify.

Are you saying that the Black Mothers’ Breastfeeding Association don't understand the vulnerabilities of their own community and are ignorant fear mongers?

In fact the company that sought to introduce the scheme abandoned it in the face of these made up vulnerabilities presented by this community association.

Is that really what you meant? The Black Mothers’ Breastfeeding Association were just fearmongerers?

Apologies Arabella , Purgatory, Hellofabore OhHoly and others for the derail but I'm still trying to get to grips with the idea that I'm supposed to feel sorry for a woman who paid for sex with the specific aim of becoming pregnant and who then rejected the baby because the baby didn't meet her specifications.

This case was not rape.

www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2020/971.html&query=(title:(+Lawrance+))

The law concerning the impact of deception on the issue of consent to sexual intercourse was recently reviewed by the Divisional Court inR (Monica) v. DPP.The facts were that a woman who was an environmental activist had an intimate relationship with a man she thought agreed with her ideological beliefs, but he was in fact an undercover police officer who had infiltrated her group. The claim was a challenge to the decision of the Director of Public Prosecutions not to prosecute the officer for a series of offences, including rape. Her case was that consent was obtained on the basis of deceit and that she would not have consented to an intimate relationship had she known what he was. The DPP's decision was upheld

lies about status, employment or wealth are such examples. A bigamist does not commit rape or sexual assault upon his or her spouse despite the fundamental deception involved. The consent of the deceived second spouse, even if it would not have been forthcoming had the truth been known, does not vitiate consent for the purposes of sexual offending. Neither is the consent of a sex worker vitiated if the client never intends to pay

Apologies - wrong thread!

I did , 12.

Kimiko, we're on a thread where someone claims to support facilitating a milk trade because they value breastmilk just so much that they want all babies to have access to it, but doesn't value breastmilk enough to consider using it as a substitute for cows' milk in their toddler's mashed potato and porridge.

Honestly, I think your ongoing tangent is doing a lot to keep my brain cells alive.

What has cracked me up reading this thread is the multiple times people have talked about the mother's milk belonging to the baby.

Fuck that.

Is this not commodification of the woman too???

Jesus wept.

I have done, all told 14-15 years of breastfeeding. My body made that milk. Me. My milk. I chose to feed it to my hungry babies. All 5 of them. Years. Not once did I deem it theirs.

I saw a very interesting film about Hamlet and cancer a few years ago and as I was still nursing my 4th I offered to give my breast milk to my friend with cancer. I had some so much research and it seemed pretty miraculous. He refused and he died. I often wonder if I could have saved him.

I offered to give my breast milk to my friend with cancer.

What was your friend with cancer supposed to do with your breast milk, drink it? And then what was supposed to happen?

Wtaf?

@mnhq

Julie has posted this article on twitter.

unherd.com/2022/01/why-are-men-drinking-breast-milk/

Ew. Breastmilkenjoyer on Twitter.

"Breast Milk Enjoyer also tells me that “the online right-wing bodybuilding community, which I am part of, sources almost entirely from wives of men in the sphere or women who are adjacent to it. I am very confident that having these personal links means we are sourcing the breast milk ethically.” He also insists that his consumption is not sexual. “I very much enjoy it now. It’s not a fetish thing, I’ve just had so much of it over the years that any taboo is broken. Once you go frozen, you must try fresh off the tap.”

Fresh Off the tap?
Milked?
Cows?

But what's the harm if a woman wants to sell her breast milk? She can just sit and read a book whilst she pumps right?

I think the harms are quite clearly spelt out in the article tbh and if you can't them that I don't think anything will help you see the link.

It's not sexual but you're a grown man drinking from an unrelated woman's breast?? WTF?

I think people have jumped into the thread without reading Julie's article. I admit I did initially. I read it a few days ago and it's clear what is happening in Cambodia is exploitative and harmful to women and their children. I know the environment is different in the UK (too much intrusion by formula companies at the lower socoeconomic end of society, so low breastfeeding rates, and not as wide an inequality gap) but it is a slope, isn't it? It's probably not harmful for mothers to buy and sell breastmilk between themselves when they are roughly equal in socioeconomic status, but the existence of that as a market leads to profit-driven companies coming in for a slice of the action, in a way which is clearly harmful.

I would imagine in Cambodia women do share breastmilk between themselves if babies need it, so the buying of breastmilk by profit-making companies could harm this woman-to-woman support practice as well. That could have a knock on effect by forcing poor women with low milk supplies to use formula, which is very expensive (harming the whole family; increasing the risk of malnutrition or water poisoning from over-dilution) and risky when you do not have an abundant supply of power and clean water.

A type of customer I hadn't considered before:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CZMTMQ8jXYF/?utmmedium=copyy_link

I discovered this book earlier which may be pertinent.

Selling Mothers' Milk: The Wet-Nursing Business in France 1715 - 1912

Not something I can afford right now, but something I will want to look at in the future.

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113888485552?hash=item1a844860b0:g:ziIAAOSw5nBeI2V0