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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why am I not surprised?

414 replies

FatFucker · 09/01/2022 00:09

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10382291/Did-Hertfordshire-Police-force-break-uniform-code-transgender-trailblazer.html

One rule for women and another for transgender women.

Having long green nails and heavy makeup, breaches Hertfordshire Police Forces uniform policy, unless of course you're trans! Then you can do what you like to "feel like a woman".

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 09/01/2022 22:14

It is my personal opinion that if the force has such a dress code for female officers, it is likely for practical reasons, some of which have been outlined on this thread.

I can't see any good reason for making an exception for other officers.

Waitwhat23 · 09/01/2022 22:15

There's mention in the article about numerous complaints and given that the policy appears to apply to anyone who wears make-up, I wonder if it would it be considered sexual discrimination due to women being expected to adhere to a policy for which males can receive an exemption or would it be viewed as simply unfair? I've only ever seen make-up being discussed in regards to sexual discrimination in terms of women being required to wear makeup, not women being required to wear minimal make-up while males can receive an exemption from this rule.

CheeseMmmm · 09/01/2022 22:17

helle

Thanks for letting me know that the transphobia was deleted.

Really hate to see comments that on here.

CheeseMmmm · 09/01/2022 22:23

@FatFucker

Can we please all stop asking the PP to link to the tweet of the fake tanned officer. We all know why the PP can't link to it.

Can we move on and not discuss again on this thread, or it's going to be gone by the morning. I've had too many threads on this board zapped. I'm fucking pissed off with it.

Replying and tagging the PP is exactly what they want. They get the thread zapped and the evidence of their racism has gone.

Please let's go back to the original article.

100% agree was about to say the same OP.

It's taken us way of track, away from the point.

I think drop it. At this point I have no interest in seeing the post because I think that tan comment has been covered enough.

Also well scroll back enough years and at some point the poster will judge some poor woman in uniform on their Twitter to have a poor fake tan and then post it for us all to argue over and let's just not go there.

This is about breaching strict dress code.

FatFucker · 09/01/2022 22:25

Can someone tell me if the makeup and nail varnish policy is for policeofficers or police women?

Are policemen "allowed" to wear makeup and nail varnish.

As a teenager of the 80's I loved a bit of makeup on a man! I wonder if a policeman could wear say, for example, black eyeliner?

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 09/01/2022 22:25

The article also says

In 2018 it was the first in Britain to introduce 'gender-neutral hats' to support trans officers, meaning they no longer needed to wear female-only bowlers.

I wonder if female officers might have wanted to have unisex hats that didn't mark them out
as female for years. If they did, clearly no-one cared.

FatFucker · 09/01/2022 22:31

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

The article also says

In 2018 it was the first in Britain to introduce 'gender-neutral hats' to support trans officers, meaning they no longer needed to wear female-only bowlers.

I wonder if female officers might have wanted to have unisex hats that didn't mark them out
as female for years. If they did, clearly no-one cared.

Ooooo very interesting discussion. I know when I was in the military I hated having to wear a smart skirt instead of trousers. But didn't have the choice we had to wear the skirt.

Still makes my blood boil now! And I don't think it's changed! Maybe a transwoman needs to complain?

At school we weren't allowed to wear trousers so a lot of us girls rebelled and wore them! We were in the local paper! Couldn't do that in the military though :)

OP posts:
CheeseMmmm · 09/01/2022 22:34

@NoNotMeNoSiree

The post is about adhering to dress codes

The '' laydee'' comment and the one about rapists in prisons shows it's not really just about that for some, is it?

There are lots of posters on this thread.

I would not ask you why another poster who shared your views said anything I thought was off topic/dodgy etc.

There's no point discussing what a specific poster said with anyone other than that poster.

I don't assume on threads with two points of view, that an individual post content is what anyone else thinks unless they say something indicating they do.

I think it would be good to get back to the actual reason for the thread.

CheeseMmmm · 09/01/2022 22:35

Fat and purgatory loads and loads of that sort of thing.

NoNotMeNoSiree · 09/01/2022 22:38

I don't assume on threads with two points of view, that an individual post content is what anyone else thinks unless they say something indicating they do
Neither do I, I don't think that everyone thinks that way for a minute.
As we're all different.
I was just saying it really isn't just about a concern for dress codes, is it.
Posts like that show there's more to it than that.

VestofAbsurdity · 09/01/2022 22:40

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

The article also says

In 2018 it was the first in Britain to introduce 'gender-neutral hats' to support trans officers, meaning they no longer needed to wear female-only bowlers.

I wonder if female officers might have wanted to have unisex hats that didn't mark them out
as female for years. If they did, clearly no-one cared.

There was/is a problem with stab vests being designed purely to fit the male form and therefore not fitting and not protecting females as they should.

An item of protective clothing one would have hoped they would get right, but hey, ho 'tis only the females at risk.

CheeseMmmm · 09/01/2022 22:43

Back to the topic!

That they got a shitload of complaints on Twitter and direct is interesting. They weren't all from the handful of women on this thread I assume...!

The discussion points in support of the non standard nails etc, to me feel somehow as if posters on this thread are the sole group saying why not adhering to dress code.

Anyone else feel that?

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 09/01/2022 22:43

I don't assume on threads with two points of view, that an individual post content is what anyone else thinks unless they say something indicating they do

Thats a great attitude to have, many times on here ive seen posters take silence for assent

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 09/01/2022 22:44

There was/is a problem with stab vests being designed purely to fit the male form and therefore not fitting and not protecting females as they should

Yes they were too short if I remember correctly

youvegottenminuteslynn · 09/01/2022 22:46

I was just saying it really isn't just about a concern for dress codes, is it.

For some of us, yes. This particular discussion was about concern for dress codes not being equally applicable to women and trans women as an example of how women are being afforded less rights and freedoms than natal males who are later trans women. Can you see how that is problematic and not 'just' about make up and nails, but about the wider discussion of women's treatment? It would be refreshing if you could try to understand that as you haven't seemed to try to and it's a really, really important issue.

Posts like that show there's more to it than that.

Women aren't hive mind. Mumsnet isn't hive mind. You are a woman and you are on mumsnet. You vehemently disagree with other women and mumsnetters, so you can see that for yourself. Using individuals who are saying something different to others engaging with you as a reason not to engage does nothing but stop the important discussion. You can ignore those who say things you see as inflammatory or goady and engage in good faith with posters genuinely posing questions like mine in this post.

I don't think you could call the above inflammatory, as im trying to encourage you to think critically and try to see people's issue with this.

It's not that I don't think in principle trans women shouldn't wear make up or painted nails at work. It's that in this job, it is blanket policy for women to not wear painted nails or heavy make up so allowing a trans woman to do so feels unfair. Not because of jealousy but because of equality.

And if a trans woman would like to be treated as a woman, it would make sense for them to adhere to the policy that women are required to within a particular job.

Can you see that at all?

PoisonCrystal · 09/01/2022 22:47

@FatFucker It purely refers to individuals, not policemen or policewomen.

From a FOI response here www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/707933/response/1694743/attach/html/4/BCH20%20001%20Dress%20and%20Equipment%20Code%20and%20Standards%20Policy.pdf.html

BCH20/001 Dress and Equipment Code and Standards Policy

“ Make up and nail varnish

4.2.7
Individuals should keep make-up discreet or in connection with your religion/faith (e.g. the Bindi). Individuals in operational roles must ensure nails are kept short and any nail varnish must be neutral in colour. “

VestofAbsurdity · 09/01/2022 22:48

I was just saying it really isn't just about a concern for dress codes, is it.

That is all I am concerned about on this thread, all the OP is referencing and the overwhelming majority of the posters on this thread, the point as has been made to you over and over and over again is the unfairness of allowing one particular officer carte blanche not to adhere to the rules every other officer has to, you know this, we know this.

Your attempts to obfuscate in order to ensure your favoured caste remain so favoured are transparent.

CheeseMmmm · 09/01/2022 22:50

I do point out if really wtf. I do think that's important. I do it a fair bit in fact just remembered saw one on another thread by a poster who is long term and I generally agree with.

One of those where applying an external argument to topic of thread makes sense, forgetting to consider it across everything is woah nope.

Everyone's own judgement!

These two comments though while off topic/ not helpful. I understand why said and so ignore and avoid derail. I also know that one of them there are massive differences in meaning depending on experience and other things. Can discuss on another thread if wanted?

If the actual posters want to discuss then I'm sure they will do so.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 09/01/2022 22:52

So, you can have female-specific hats that signal you out as female to drunken louts while patrolling the High Street at chucking out time. But not female-specific protection gear.

I remember a female officer being stabbed, possibly killed? And it turned out that she'd removed her vest because she couldn't wear it and perform the physical task of using the battering ram on a suspect's door.

Other female officers came forward to say it was quite usual for female officers to compromise their own safety by removing vests, in order to get the actual current job done.

Waitwhat23 · 09/01/2022 22:56

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

There was/is a problem with stab vests being designed purely to fit the male form and therefore not fitting and not protecting females as they should

Yes they were too short if I remember correctly

As the stab vests are made for the default male, they simply don't fit women properly at all. I found some interesting details in the 'Personal protective equipment and women' - TUC report (2017) -

'Police body armour

Body armour issued to women police
officers is a major concern. This is despite
regular complaints being made over the
past 20 years. In 1997 a women police
officer was stabbed and killed while using a hydraulic ram to enter a flat. She had
removed her body armour because it was
too difficult to use the ram while wearing it. Two years later a woman police officer
disclosed she had to have breast reduction
surgery because of the health effects of
wearing her body armour. After the case
was reported another 700 officers in the
same force came forward to complain about the vest. Over 20 years after complaints were first made, women officers are still reporting problems. This is a selection of complaints received:

“For a long time our uniform has never fitted correctly as we appear to have
hips and breasts. Who would’ve
thought? My vest is doubled as a hand
warmer during the cold months as the
breast area padding is so roomy. The
actual vest sits on my kit belt which in
turn bruises my hips, especially when
standing for long periods of time on an
operation. I cannot be alone in this.”

“I have had similar issues with my stab
vest. I have been having regular sports
massages due to problems with my
back and IT band in my leg. I am told
by my physio that my stab vest and kit
belt is the main culprits due to the way
pull on the shoulders and the vest
pushes down the belt. My stab vest also sits on my belt causing the belt to
rub uncomfortably making my hips
sore and often bruised after a long
shift.”

“I’ve actually had physio due to the
issues with my stab vest sadly. I took
my stab vest in to show them and they
were horrified and felt they are terrible
for posture. I get sore hips where the
belt and equipment rub, leaving red
marks. I don’t have the joy of the vest
being roomy, in fact, mine makes me
feel incredibly squashed in the chest
area even though it is shaped. They
seem to be one size fits all in the chest
which clearly isn’t the case!”

“My stab vest usually chokes me when
sitting in the Police vehicle. It rides up
to my chin. Yes the stab vest only acts
as sweat box in the summer and a
heater in the winter. As far as being
something to protect me against a
knife, there are plenty of areas
accessible to anyone who wanted to do
serious harm. It sits on my chest,
meaning I can fit my hand up through
the bottom of the vest. I find that, as a
result, it doesn’t distribute the weight
evenly, giving me back pain if I have to
stand for long periods of time. It also
comes up far too short. All I can truly
say is that, I have suffered aches on my
torso and back area from stab vests
and more than likely due to the fact
that I am not flat chested and also have
had children and therefore my body
has been probably affected by child
bearing. I certainly agree that when we
wear such heavy and needed PPE that
it should be properly fitted and suitable
to individuals if not at least suitable for
the female body shape.”

“My vest is all loose above the breast
area and towards the shoulder, so
loose it sometimes bows out! The vest
also has large areas uncovered
underneath my arms as it sits quite low
and butts up against my tack belt and
equipment. It also infuriates me that
the epaulettes made for stab vests are
so big. Mine have to be folded under
on the button side which is very
uncomfortable. If this is not done I
have two large ‘handles’ by which to
grab my vest and therefore…me!”

“I would describe my stab vest as
similar to a crop top. It is not designed
to fit my breasts and despite numerous
attempts to adjust it to fit it still
doesn’t. There is no side protection at
all and the gap left at the top above my
breasts is large enough to fit another
pair of breasts. When I sit in the car or
on a chair the stab vest rises up and I
end up looking like I’m wearing a
tortoise shell. This leaves both my hips
and neck sore. Wearing it for a full shift
causes me to feel sharp pains in my
back for hours after I take it off and my
breasts feel sore from being squashed
for anything up to 12 hours. The only
good point about it is that it keeps my
hands warm in the winter.”

“We don’t need to be Barbified, just have the same gear as the men, but with an adjustment to allow a proper fit…”

Waitwhat23 · 09/01/2022 22:57

Apologies, I hadn't realised how long that would come out - the formatting has gone a bit haywire!

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 09/01/2022 23:00

Very interesting though wait 🙂

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 09/01/2022 23:05

No need to apologise, Wait! That is stuff we need to talk about, and it was all extremely relevant.

CheeseMmmm · 09/01/2022 23:06

@NoNotMeNoSiree

I don't assume on threads with two points of view, that an individual post content is what anyone else thinks unless they say something indicating they do Neither do I, I don't think that everyone thinks that way for a minute. As we're all different. I was just saying it really isn't just about a concern for dress codes, is it. Posts like that show there's more to it than that.
The first and second bit of that very short post are entirely contradictory.

I can only know my reasons for huge concern that human sex is, essentially already in England Scotland Wales (not so up to date NI) not at all important any more. *

And gender ID should be (mostly already in) the basis for anything and everything across the board, where there are two groups that have different body configurations to each other at a global level, different risks etc.

I know why I think that. I am aware that plenty of other reasons people have for being unhappy with gender ideology in general. And that some reasons are to do with things that I personally think are shitty.

For example males who are just uncomfortable with gender non conforming males being around the place.

Your understanding is that when a poster or poster says on here it's not about transphobia, it's about double standards.

You take that to be stating that they don't mean themselves or the bunch of posters on this thread who also say that.

They mean that's what it's about for everyone from anywhere who has issues with the nails etc?

That's a very unusual understanding.
I'd be really interested why you took it that way tbh.

* I've read sex irrelevant apart from health care. And in healthcare plenty people have eg prostate removed cancer, so using male is reductive. People with prostates should be used for maximum clarity. Having health records list parts and gender ID I've seen proposed a good few times.

CheeseMmmm · 09/01/2022 23:19

Wait, exact same problems with army kit.

In army read one that's just something would never even cross mind, at least to me anyway!

It was about marching and in group organised marching in line you know the style.

I think it was when had rucksack with heavy stuff esp, can't remember if even when not carrying that.

Anyway the stride length in order to keep neat and in lines etc was longer than general natural stride range for women unless pretty tall.

The result was they found women getting load of hairline fractures in hips I think it was.

Not sure if/what done about it.

Iirc the standard backpacks also totally wrong for women bodies so ill fitting which we all know comes with a host of issues. Not least being much less effective in making easier as load across body not just shoulders etc.

Interesting stuff.

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