If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

@HaroldMeeker

If anyone needs to see the lie in the "perfect vagina created surgically" myth, they just need to watch a few episodes of a tv show centred around a young MTF trans person, JJ. That is not a happy individual. That is not a pain free "vagina"

Indeed - a vagina is an organ, not just a hole or skin sheath (despite the name…) It is muscular and a mucous membrane, with different types of contracting bands and locations of muscles and rugae (expanding ridges on its surface) — and all sorts of skin textures and papillae inside. In fact, the purposes and microbiome of some of the vaginal skin and muscle structures are not even fully known about, because women’s health and anatomy has been so poorly understood and still is (cf. the understanding of the anatomy of the clitoris, too).

It’s part of long standing misogyny to think of the vagina as just a hole or receptacle for a penis, rather than a complex organ in its own right.

I cannot believe any medical student - or any reasonably intelligent person - would think a artificial skin tunnel created from inverted penile skin or colon membrane is anything like a natural expanding muscular organ, which the vagina is - or “swappable” for one. At the very least, this requires some rather extreme overlooking of or pretending to ignore anatomical facts. Not exactly what anyone would want in a doctor, really.

@Fieldofgreycorn

And sex crime behaviour for transitioned males remains at the same rate as for all other males.

The one study you’re referring to did not mention sex crime. And it only showed a difference for those that transitioned prior to 1989.

There is some discussion as to whether it is in fact higher.

Anyone can identify as trans after conviction, and some do. Most have been reported to be cross dressers, not what is generally meant by trans women or ‘transsexuals’ and have not undergone medical or legal transition.

This data may be of assistance.

4w.pub/50-of-trans-inmates-in-federal-custody-for-sex-offences/

In fact, the purposes and microbiome of some of the vaginal skin and muscle structures are not even fully known about, because women’s health and anatomy has been so poorly understood and still is (cf. the understanding of the anatomy of the clitoris, too).

Quite.

Behold the mighty clitoris (on yellow), and attendant female organs.

It's my understanding that even before surgery, the clitoris has zillions more nerve endings than the tip of the penis. God only knows what happens to those nerve endings after you've had an operation on them.

And, of course, there's nothing you can do to replicate any of this work of art.

*IN yellow

From the article linked above (transmans account of phalloplasty surgery):
"............nerve bundles in my native penis, which some people call a clitoris"...........

No.
EVERYONE calls it a clitoris.
Because it is one.

Yes - the artist who did the “Great wall of vagina” recently did some glass casts of the vaginal interior:

brightonbodycasting.com/portfolio/internal-vagina-cast-in-glass/

It’s nothing at all like a thin skin tube. The idea that this fabulously complex organ which actually moves around independently - with the cervix raising and lowering during different parts of the menstrual cycle - is equivalent to an inflexible surgical wound created with packing is laughable.

It is quite amazing that there are some skin structures inside that there is no research on at all. The anatomy of the penis is exhaustively known, but women’s is still incredibly understudied. Even the woman, Professor Helen O’Connell, who discovered the full structure of the clitoris talks of how absolutely taboo it was even in urology:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/nov/01/the-sole-function-of-the-clitoris-is-female-orgasm-is-that-why-its-ignored-by-medical-science

More of the glass vaginal sculptures:
www.greatwallofvagina.co.uk/shop/internal-affairs-internal-vagina-casting

A female artist did her own casting procedure in a feminist response to McCartney’s:
christinabakker.wordpress.com/2015/09/25/3-5-open-task-1-vagina-casting/

You can see some of the skin structures and archaeology of the vagina in the extraordinary images on page 2 of this document:
www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/293010

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]More on that "swapping". The creation of neo-phalluses.

extract

“I would rather have died on the table than not had the surgery,” one Korean American guy with great sweaters responded (and, like everybody here, gave me permission to repeat), to a chorus of nodding Zoom heads.

It has happened at least once that someone did die. I was fully ready to, by which I mean I’d just spent nearly the last of my savings, which I’d burned navigating the emotional-mental-social-medical-legal-extreme-marginalization mindfuck shitshow of transitioning, on a burial plot just in case. One of the nodding heads in the group belonged to a nonbinary white person who was still horizontal in recovery from having had, a week prior, the worst happen, which was that after their procedure, in which all the fat and skin had been stripped from their left forearm from wrist to nearly elbow, along with major nerves, an artery, and veins, and then shaped into a tube and connected, in careful layers, to skin and blood vessels and nerves in their pelvis, their new penis had failed.

It died. On them.

nymag.com/intelligencer/article/gabriel-mac-essay.html[/quote]
That's the most neurotic thing I've ever read (the link, not your post)

@Datun that 3D representation is fascinating. I think what I experience as my “g-spot” must be that tripartite bit over the vagina, where the glans and the crura join together!

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

ODFO *@Whatiswrongwithmyknee*!

You've started that bloody ear worm again...

Quim quivery, quim quivery,
Quim, quim, querr-ee

I am supposed to be bloody working!

You think a fake vag is just like a real one?

[quote foxgoosefinch]@Datun that 3D representation is fascinating. I think what I experience as my “g-spot” must be that tripartite bit over the vagina, where the glans and the crura join together![/quote]
Indeed. Ask women to describe their orgasms, and you'll get 10 different answers.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Pseudo vaginas are not hugely like an actual vagina unless we consider them primarily to be a tube to stick a dick into. My vagina recoils at being compared to an artificial one.

You think a fake vag is just like a real one? I think you entirely misunderstood my sarcasm @Whatiswrongwithmyknee

You said

My vagina recoils at being compared to an artificial one. And I agreed. The mere thought of it makes my real vag shudder too.

Hence the fucking ear worm - a daft play on Chim Chiminy Chim Chiminy Chim Chim Chimeree

Sing it...

(and I did add that I had forgotten the just in case someone gad a sense of humour failure)

Ah, got it!

This thread has it all, and can be summed up as this…

Clown World Biology

Wims

It's disappointing that the continuous belittling, dismissal, and negating of women has continued from some posters on this thread - disappointing in that it's the status quo and we're allowing such bad behaviour to continue.

Saying "no" really has brought forth the reality beneath the thin veneer of civilisation as has the "yes" that goes with the thread title, but my christ it's tiresome to deal with.

Given some of the smug and self-satisfied (although at times thoroughly unaware of events being discussed) comments here I'm torn between wanting to make it simple by saying GtF or ODFOD to some rather than waste energy trying to deal with the batshittery.

I think more reasoned discussions could be had with Ms or Mr Potato Head than some of those who've replied.

Just to add to the ‘hard to tell a skeleton’, a male who has gone so far as to have had their facial bone structure changed, will be picked up too.

@Helleofabore

Just to add to the ‘hard to tell a skeleton’, a male who has gone so far as to have had their facial bone structure changed, will be picked up too.

Absolutely. And the ladeeeeeeeeeee skeleton will be wearing pink frilly pants and glittery high heels.

Grave items, ya know.

I hadn't really worked it out before reading these boards over ther last few years but all this talk of skeletons and body biological differences really misses the biggest difference of all which to me seems to be the impact of early life socialisation

The anger I felt as a child in the unfairness of treatment re-emerges when I see how that affects people as adults

The I get what I want attitude of ( some) males and we must look after the men attitude of ( some) women

You can change your body all you like but until you rid yourself of that arrogance ....

On another note, I see this book is being touted on Twitter by some of the previous "visitors" to this forum:
www.amazon.co.uk/Spectrum-Sex-Science-Female-Intersex/dp/1787752658/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1MEL75KKQOOIO&keywords=the+spectrum+of+sex&sprefix=the+spectrum+of+sex%2Caps%2C67&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1641463507&sr=8-1

Hope that link works. If you read the description of the book I think it is pretty clear what the agenda of the author is.

"It's time to take off the blinders and recognize and embrace the reality of a third sex - intersex, a diverse biological spectrum between male and female. The Spectrum of Sex: The Science of Male, Female, and Intersex helps us to do just that by integrating science and social, cultural and linguistic analysis of binary and non-binary sex."

Who knew? There's a THIRD sex! And it IS a spectrum after all! ..........Oh Aunty Em, there's NO place like HOME! (Music crashes and credits roll)..........

@ArabellaScott

Too late, I have seen you.. and won't forget that mental image in a hurry

embrace the reality of a third sex - intersex, a diverse biological spectrum between male and female. How fucking insulting is that?

I mean, ah come ON!!! What fuckwit thought any of that would be in any way appropriate, meaningful, scientific..... FFS!

What role does 'intersex' play in sexual reproduction?

Which conditions do you deny being male or female?

Oh, ffs. I could get so angry on behalf of anyone with a DSD who has their body used to advance ridiculous, demeaning and offensive fucking astrology-based 'science'.

No, it's not a third sex, you utter cretins.