If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

Although, the integrity of the Potato Head as an entity remains as always, a Potato Head.

is

Although, the integrity of the Potato Head as an entity remains as always, a Potato Head, just with a Barbie arm.

Just rejoining this and have yet to catch up, so apologies if this has already been said.

they have done a study on trans men who were given puberty blockers as girls. Bone scans have shown that their pelvises do not expand into the usual female wider shape and configuration, but remain narrow like a males pelivis. It’s why there are fertility and childbirth complications in transmen, they are more likely to require a c-section due to this nonfemale narrow pelvis. Their limbs also show higher bone density...which would in an archaeological setting be called “robust” bones...more indicative of a man.

This is an out and out lie. They've only been putting girls on blockers for a few years and girls who have taken these drugs for either precocious puberty or to transition have low bone density, collapsing vertebrae, crumbling jaws. Certainly not big thick manly bones. Not at all.

And sex crime behaviour for transitioned males remains at the same rate as for all other males.

The one study you’re referring to did not mention sex crime. And it only showed a difference for those that transitioned prior to 1989.

There is some discussion as to whether it is in fact higher.

Anyone can identify as trans after conviction, and some do. Most have been reported to be cross dressers, not what is generally meant by trans women or ‘transsexuals’ and have not undergone medical or legal transition.

@Goatsaregreat

As someone said earlier - this thread deserves to be in Classics as a concrete example of everything women said is actually happening. Excusing flashing / indecent exposure towards a young girl as socially acceptable?

I think it’s a bit pearl clutchy to angst over a male person in a pool who might have a bit of stiffy

Safeguarding children from (a known) predator is now "pearl clutchy" . I despair.

You've got there.

Trying hard to market boundaries and safeguarding as old fashioned, silly and not what nice, modern, properly thinking type female people do?

Well who and what agenda does that serve I wonder?

A: The people who find boundaries and safeguarding really bloody inconvenient . And would really like them not to impede their behaviour.

I think it’s a bit pearl clutchy to angst over a male person in a pool who might have a bit of stiffy

See, you may think this sentence sounds horrifying and sets of all sorts of alarm bells about safeguarding.

But it is effectively echoes what Laurie Penny said:

'I'd advise [your 15 yr old daughter] not to stare at other people's genitals without their permission, because it's rude.'

twitter.com/PennyRed/status/1409790944635883523?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

What the Guardian said:

'The video [of 'Cubana Angel' objecting to a male in the women's spa area] was also shared by feminists who advocate against trans-inclusive policies – sometimes referred to as gender critical feminists, or trans-exclusionary radical feminists (Terfs). Moro documented a flurry of posts on Ovarit (a site for users banned from Reddit due to transphobia) and Mumsnet (a platform for UK mothers, which has attracted anti-trans feminists).'

'the contemporary “moral panic” against trans people has deep roots in multiple conservative movements that historically spread baseless claims about threats to women and children.'

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/28/anti-trans-video-los-angeles-protest-wi-spa

And a wee reminder of how that turned out:

nypost.com/2021/09/02/charges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-wi-spa-casecharges-filed-against-sex-offender-in-notorious-wi-spa-incident/

I am not 'anti trans'. I care about safeguarding. This idea that anyone raising concerns about safeguarding is 'pearl clutchy' creates a 'sacred caste' where a male with a semi can expose himself to women and children and there are RIOTS to defend his right to do so.

result pelvis stays narrow like an adult males, does not widen into usual adult female configuration.
- girls then take hormone therapy as adult transmen
- result increased bone density and size, (bone density and size is affected by muscle mass and strength training or physical occupation)

Point three is nonsense. Girls who have been on blockers are tiny, they make tiny transmen. Are you arguing they could be mistaken for a prepubertal boy by their skeleton? The bone density changes are permanent. The bones don't get bigger and stronger because the transman works in a warehouse and takes testosterone. There is no aesthetic benefit to the end transition result in girls taking blockers. Blockers used in boys make for a more believable "female" look, but used in girls the only selling point is the cessation of periods and breast growth. Blockers in a girl don't make for a more believable "male" look.

VestofAbsurdity & Artichokeleaves:
Someone mentioned the Overton window earlier - and this is it isn't it? People now have the arrogance / confidence to say the hidden bits out loud.

@Fieldofgreycorn

And sex crime behaviour for transitioned males remains at the same rate as for all other males.

The one study you’re referring to did not mention sex crime. And it only showed a difference for those that transitioned prior to 1989.

There is some discussion as to whether it is in fact higher.

Anyone can identify as trans after conviction, and some do. Most have been reported to be cross dressers, not what is generally meant by trans women or ‘transsexuals’ and have not undergone medical or legal transition.

Sure fieldofgreycorn, I think it is more important to look at the current statistics for those in prison.

If you disagree with these, then perhaps you should campaign to get them recorded properly, and to talk to those perpetuating the mantra 'people are who they say they are'.

If you have any other way to show this data, please do so.

For now, we are stuck with the actual prison stats that have to be hand segregated because the MoJ has no way of recording either trans status or GRC status as they stated in the recent court case.

This is NOT a mess of women's making.

@Lovelyricepudding

That said, they have done a study on trans men who were given puberty blockers as girls. Bone scans have shown that their pelvises do not expand into the usual female wider shape and configuration, but remain narrow like a males pelivis. It’s why there are fertility and childbirth complications in transmen, they are more likely to require a c-section due to this nonfemale narrow pelvis. Their limbs also show higher bone density...which would in an archaeological setting be called “robust” bones...more indicative of a man

Where to start... prepubertal body shape is not that is a mature man. There are not childbirth complications in women who have had their puberty suppressed as they will never be pregnant - you need to go through puberty for that. Puberty blockers result in drastic reduction in adult (age) bone density - there is no way they would be mistaken for adult male 'robust' bones.

This says it much better than I did

And I second the proposal that this thread be saved or archived in Classics. I don't know how that works, but this solid gold thread needs to be preserved for posterity.

This is NOT a mess of women's making

Not only is this NOT a mess that women have created, it is directly harming women and it seems to be directly harming trans people.

You seem to have a different definition of 'trans' than the lobby groups. if you want YOU definition to become the authoritative one, go and do your campaigning.

If you want to have the 'real' trans people properly recognised in the statistics, again, go and speak to the Ministry of Justice and petition this to happen.

Do not complain that the statistic include those you do not wish to include when that issue underlines many of the issues that you participate in discussing on this very board. How do you tell the difference between cross dressers, not what is generally meant by trans women or ‘transsexuals’ and have not undergone medical or legal transition?

If you don't have better statistics, then perhaps recognise that it is an issue. If you can cannot disprove the statistics as they stand now, go ahead and do so. We will certainly be interested in seeing the extrapolations from the current data.

Currently, the new US statistics reflect the UK trend. So, whatever is happening in the UK is being shown to also be happening in the US. How many other countries data sets will it take before the pattern is too hard to discount as 'they are the wrong sort of trans people'?

If you can cannot disprove the statistics as they stand now, go ahead and do so. We will certainly be interested in seeing the extrapolations from the current data.

should be

If you can can disprove the statistics as they stand now, go ahead and do so. We will certainly be interested in seeing the extrapolations from the current data.

It’s pretty hard to take seriously claims of being a “scientist/medic” when someone is not only making some really basic scientific errors, but also making things up which are really obviously not true, eg this idea of puberty blockers giving girls male bones, when the exact opposite is true.

All the attempts to obfuscate the issue by claiming some kind of “it’s complicated!” science is in play all depend at their root on the familiar magical thinking idea of an intrinsic male or female soul, one which somehow transforms the body to match an inner gendered essence.

You can see this, too, in the arguments on archaeology. If it turns out some warriors were actually female, isn’t it clearly vastly more likely that archaeologists’ ideas of stereotyped male and female roles are to blame, and that some warriors were women? We have plenty of historical record supporting that. Instead gender ideologists use it as evidence that biological sex is “complicated” and “people have always been trans” - rather than challenge their ideas that sex stereotypes are the immutable things in the equation!

For a long time zoologists didn’t think animals and birds could be homosexual because when they saw mating behaviour, they simple assumed a male and a female without even checking. Now we know that many animals and birds do in fact display same sex mating behaviours - it’s just that no-one had thought to check.

Thinking that female bones dressed in warrior clothes must be evidence of an innate “transness” or a spectrum in biological sex is the same kind of category error! In both cases there’s a complete inability to acknowledge that contemporary social ideas and assumptions about gendered behaviour are not fixed essentials but simply lenses that change.

More on that "swapping". The creation of neo-phalluses.

extract

“I would rather have died on the table than not had the surgery,” one Korean American guy with great sweaters responded (and, like everybody here, gave me permission to repeat), to a chorus of nodding Zoom heads.

It has happened at least once that someone did die. I was fully ready to, by which I mean I’d just spent nearly the last of my savings, which I’d burned navigating the emotional-mental-social-medical-legal-extreme-marginalization mindfuck shitshow of transitioning, on a burial plot just in case. One of the nodding heads in the group belonged to a nonbinary white person who was still horizontal in recovery from having had, a week prior, the worst happen, which was that after their procedure, in which all the fat and skin had been stripped from their left forearm from wrist to nearly elbow, along with major nerves, an artery, and veins, and then shaped into a tube and connected, in careful layers, to skin and blood vessels and nerves in their pelvis, their new penis had failed.

It died. On them.

nymag.com/intelligencer/article/gabriel-mac-essay.html

Talking about Mr Potato Head reminds me, I wonder what Sid from Toy Story did when he grew up. A career in some of the more novel forms of cosmetic and genitourological surgery might have suited him.

Re scientist/medic: I was wondering if that meant medical student.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

Re scientist/medic: I was wondering if that meant medical student.

God, I sincerely hope not.

I know, but unfortunately TWAWTMAMNBPAV has infiltrated medical schools along with every other branch of academe.

@EmpressCixi

It seems a common theme that someone will drop a load of unsubstantiated bullshit that can easily be disproven and then "bow out" of the argument on the basis of the women here being so uneducated we simply CAN'T hold an argument.

Or maybe, just maybe we have jobs we have to get back to and are not ladies of leisure?

Anyway, biology is more than your genetics of XX or XY. Genetic sex is mostly a binary, as intersex is rare but also a reality. Do the argument that you “can’t change sex” is purely based on the concept that you cannot change your DNA from XY to XX or vice versa. Which is why it is more accurate to say that a person born genetically male will most probably die genetically male than it is to use the broader term of “biologically” because biological features associated with ones sex other than DNA can are are absolutely changeable. Just the mere fact we can add or remove body hair, change voice boxes, put lactating breasts on a man or swap a vagina for a penis or vice versa all mean that various biological aspects relating to sex mean you can even today be born a biological male but then die no longer biologically male. And with advances going at the current pace, someone born today is going to have access to only more ways to alter their biology.

Again, biology is not genetics. Genetics is only a small part of biology.

You can't 'swap' a penis for a vagina and vice versa? I don't understand how this is confusing. You can 'make' a replica but it will never actually be a vagina. You can't create a working womb, you can replicate things but you can't make a fully functioning womb. I totally feel for anyone who feels they don't fit in the bodies they've been born into but there are constraints wether you like it or not.

@FlyingOink

And I second the proposal that this thread be saved or archived in Classics. I don't know how that works, but this solid gold thread needs to be preserved for posterity.

Archivin be done up to date.

I also want to add because I can't remember if anybody in the course of this very long thread has said it - there is no brain/body divide. The brain is one organ in the body, one of many. The idea that a body could be male and the brain female is just arrant nonsense. Akin to believing there's a pure and ethereal soul trapped inside a sordid and loathsome body.

If anyone needs to see the lie in the "perfect vagina created surgically" myth, they just need to watch a few episodes of a tv show centred around a young MTF trans person, JJ. That is not a happy individual. That is not a pain free "vagina"

I have no idea what you said, @simmonslulu but I suspect that you used a term banned on this specific fora and A Monitor got you!

It's unlikely a regular poster did, we like offensive stuff to remain visible for all to seee (not saying you were offensive, just that we don't often report it).