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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

999 replies

daisiesonmydress · 03/01/2022 12:05

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

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Lovelyricepudding · 05/01/2022 14:03

Scientific America with its "so called 'normal' distribution"?

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 05/01/2022 14:03

Or will they? Forensic archaeologists determine sex by looking at bone structure. Mostly the pelvis shape and also the general gracile or robustness of the limbs. There is in some ethnicities certain skull features associated more commonly but not exclusively with male than female such as lesser supraorbital bossing, more angular jaw, longer nasal bones, etc.

Oh you almost sound like you understand that! But most tracts on the subject, like Oxford Bibiolgraphies, use the same words. Here, read just the Introduction and have the good grace to be honest as you read the last part.

That said, they have done a study on trans men who were given puberty blockers as girls. Bone scans have shown that their pelvises do not expand into the usual female wider shape and configuration, but remain narrow like a males pelivis. It’s why there are fertility and childbirth complications in transmen, they are more likely to require a c-section due to this nonfemale narrow pelvis. Their limbs also show higher bone density...which would in an archaeological setting be called “robust” bones...more indicative of a man.

Which THEY?

You know that last paragraph I told you to be honest about...

significant skeletal sexual dimorphism is not present prior to puberty. Attempts to develop methods for subadult sex estimation have met with varying degrees of success, but, as a rule, it is not possible to determine sex accurately prior to the onset of puberty, especially when dealing with infants and children.

So any changes made tot he normal development of a human body prior to puberty will be mainly becaue they occured prior to puberty - you know, like, erm, puberty blockers!!!

Finally, archaeologists also depend or are biased by the grave goods with the persons skeletal remains. If you’ve lived as a trans-man or trans-woman you would most probably be buried with items reflecting your gender, not your genetic sex. There have been well known cases of “warriors” identified as male by archaeologists based on skeletal remains plus grave goods, only to be turned upside down when these same remains have their DNA analysed and it comes back XX. So they have a big oops moment and realise that society x, y years ago had female warriors.

Yeah, we know. Those female Viking arriors were actually transwomen, Just like Joan of Arc etc. We've heard it all before.

The ppint is that those errors are not actually errors they are working hypotheses made based on the grave goods, dress, etc. And, more often than not in the absence of the pelvic girdle it then will take DNA analysis to determine thesex of the individual. Just as we have seen on Time Team, Dig for Britain and many other similar programmes.

Your twaddle is simply someone's hopeful analysis of maybes and who knows?

So with puberty blockers and hormone therapy actively, today changing the adult bone structure of an XX person to mimic an XY person. (They have not yet done same study on transwomen). This inability to tell the two apart without DNA tests is only going up get much harder than it already is.

Yeah! Like I already explained.

The dreadful damage done to some kids over trhe last few years will be very hard to unravel, should their adult remains ever be dug up by an archealogist of the future. Adults with a skeleton full of pre-pubescent characteristics is guaranteed to make accuracy difficult. But they'll also have the usual prime materials of the day and will be aware of the work of Tavistock, Waverley et al. They'll figure it out!

Artichokeleaves · 05/01/2022 14:08

[quote EmpressCixi]@Artichokeleaves
Your manifesto about women’s rights sort of falls apart as you are ultra focussed on male people wanting x,y,z and demanding sacrifices from all the female people which is ridiculous because you’re assuming all trans people are male, when they’re not? There are plenty of “female people” asking for the exact same things. So there’s an equality of asking, there is no targeted attack on women’s rights.[/quote]
Oh for goodness sake.

When men are being sexually harassed, assaulted and raped by TM in prison wards and mental health care wards, when men can't use rape crisis centres or access refuges because TM are there and the trauma for those men is too great or their protected characteristics mean they can't, when men's sports has been destroyed by TMs, when men can no longer use public toilets or swim, when they're thrown out of pride for saying they're homosexual, and are repeatedly threatened with rape and murder by TMs do let me know.

But it won't happen, will it? Because females are not a physical or sexual threat to male people and male people get listened to when they say no and put down boundaries . The TM are the ones in danger in mixed sex spaces. Because they are female.

And the boundaries of men and what they can and can't handle with mixed sex erosion of men's spaces, resources and facilities is for men to crack on and deal with. Females have enough problems of their own.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 05/01/2022 14:08

Jesus Wept! Empress REALLY?!?!?!

Wave your 'stiffy' in a child's face and all you can say is that the child shouldn't have been there in the first place?

What do you think you were defending when you typed that? Seriously what were you defending?

Artichokeleaves · 05/01/2022 14:12

It's baffling.

Those busy shouting about be kind and equality - have no ruddy concept of equality, and achieving what they want seems to involve being an absolute arse to everyone else.

simmonslulu · 05/01/2022 14:12

This should have been a one comment thread with one word 'yes'

Datun · 05/01/2022 14:12

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Jesus Wept! Empress REALLY?!?!?!

Wave your 'stiffy' in a child's face and all you can say is that the child shouldn't have been there in the first place?

What do you think you were defending when you typed that? Seriously what were you defending?

That happens all the time, doesn't it?

Give them a universally unacceptable situation that is a result of transgender campaigning, and they try and make the situation inapplicable, by removing it.

CruellaDeVilla · 05/01/2022 14:16

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

An Open Letter To the Guy on Twitter Who Wonders if Biological Sex is Real

Imagine you’re standing at a train station.

Across from you, you see another man step across the tracks. He’s distracted, too busy to take the long way around, too lost in his phone to notice where he’s going. You turn your head the other way and see the train, barreling towards him as he walks into its path.

What do you do? The answer is obvious, hopefully: You scream, you shout, you wave your arms and make a scene. And if he still doesn’t notice, still doesn’t look up from his phone, you jump down and push him off those tracks yourself. Maybe you’re not that brave in reality. But at the very least you hope that’s what you’d do, right?

And why is that? Why would you go through all that effort? Because, consciously or not, you understand Newton’s laws. You understand that force is equal to mass times acceleration, that a very heavy thing moving very fast can destroy a fragile human body in an instant. You do what you can to get that man off the tracks because you know that a life depends on it.

But did you know that Newton’s laws are hardly stable? That they are mere approximations, liable to break down in all sorts of situations? It’s true. Newtonian physics can’t predict the way light bends on its way through the solar system, or how an electron might spin around an atom’s core. Even something as mundane as your cellphone relies on a far more sophisticated model. While those simple equations you learned in junior high school might get you through the day, the truth is much more complicated.

Now, here’s a question: Knowing that, do you change what you yell to the man on the tracks? After all, “The train is coming towards you!” is technically inaccurate. Einstein showed us that movement is relative; in a sense, it’s just as reasonable to say that the man is hurtling towards a stationary train. You’ve got a few seconds left. Do you take the time to capture the nuance?

Physics may be the least of your problems, by the way. Biology is just as messy. You’re probably worried that the man will end up dead, smashed to pieces or ground into bits. But what does it mean to be alive or dead anyway? Many scientists would tell you that no single criteria exists to distinguish inanimate and animate matter. Some entities, like a virus or a prion, even shatter the binary completely. And if you can’t even explainwhythe man on the tracks is alive, what sense does it make to worry about keeping him that way?

And of course, all of this is beside the point if we don’t know what makes something right or wrong in the first place. Dozens and dozens of complex ethical questions exist without any agreed-upon answer, and the foundations of morality are endlessly debated. Should you do anything to help the man at all? You can imagine situations where inaction is best; perhaps he’s a serial killer, or some other unrepentant monster. Perhapsnomoral truths exist, and your effort to save him is completely irrational. Can you be sure your intervention is truly the right thing to do, if you can’t even define what “right” means in the first place?

This certainly is a complex matter —a complex obligation, a complex process, a complex result. Presumably, you’ll want to make sure your warning is in line with all the latest quantum theory. You’ll want to figure out just what you mean by “life” and “death” too. And it wouldn’t hurt to track down the nearest priest or philosophy professor to elaborate the finer points of ethics. Nuance, accuracy, and a critical eye are important, after all. Shouldn’t we strive to get everything right?

Now, here’s a different thought experiment: Imagine it’s you on the train tracks.

Lately, I’ve seen a lot of debates break out on Twitter over biological sex — what defines it, how it can be measured, whether it exists at all. The men who dominate these debates are often experts in their fields, meaning they use terms like “bimodal distribution” and “nonstandard karyotypes” to make their otherwise mundane points. I think most of these points are foolish, tired rehashings of fallacies first identified by ancient Greeks in the fourth century BCE. They confuse — or, perhaps, intentionally conflate — imprecision with invalidity, social perception with social construction, and binarism with exclusivity. In other words, they trade in the all-too-familiar illogic that festers at the intersection of science and philosophy, where ontological cowardice appears as the highest form of nuance.

But here I go again, right? It’s so easy to get sucked into this debate, to get that hot indignation in your stomach that comes when a foolish claim is so proudly asserted. And I don’t even have skin in the game — binary or not, my sex will still land me squarely in the “paid more, raped less” category. So what’s the point beyond intellectual exercise? It seems more and more obvious to me that even entertaining the debate is a concession, an assent to women’s lives being made the subject of thought experiments and counterfactuals plucked from the air by some post-grad who, coincidentally, has never once worried about pregnancy from rape.

So that’s my quarter-through-the-year resolution: I’m not going to debate with you about the reality of biological sex, for the same reason I wouldn’t stand on the train platform debating the finer points of physics while the man on the tracks gets ground into meat. That might sound a little dramatic, a flourish of rhetoric to cover up a weak rebuttal. But how long have you spent reading up to this point? Five minutes? Ten? Then the world has fifty more mutilated girls than when you started. Were the men who carried out those mutilations confused about what makes a female body? Did they ponder chromosome parings and standard deviations when they chose who to cut? Or is that kind of nuance a luxury set aside just for educated, progressive, worldly men like you?

Isn’t it odd that sex was never so complicated before? There was nothing ethereal about our biology when it came to allocating the right to vote, or own property, or walk down the street at night without fear. We knew perfectly well what made someone female when that female-ness guaranteed a life of subservience and pain. Only when women began to say no did their bodies become a concept. So many feminists have made this point, over and over again. I see them say it. I know you read it. Did you listen? If not, why? And why do you always respond when I say it? It seems you do know who has a female body, when it comes to decide which perspective is ignored.

Sex is such a mystery to you when women want shelters for themselves, meetings for themselves, words for themselves. Pardon me for asking, but is it equally mysterious when you log off Twitter and move over to Pornhub? The true nature of a female body is so complex when you lecture. Does it become simple again when you masturbate? Who does the laundry in your house? Were you somehow able to navigate an inchoate soup of X’s and Y’s to saddle your girlfriend with the dishes? Give yourself some credit — I think you know perfectly well what a female body is. But in case you don’t, here’s a hint:

It’s the only type of body that gets you thrown on the funeral pyre when the husband dies. It’s the only type of body that gets your feet bound and your breasts ironed. It’s the only type made pregnant through rape and burned with acid, the only type expected to sit quietly and listen while we redefine it away, the only type men have spent millennia criticizing and critiquing and buying and selling until the moment we decided we couldn’t figure out what the fuck it even means.

You know what a female body is, dude? It’s the only type of body that makes men like you ask such stupid questions. So please, stop. This is an emergency. This is three and a half billion human beings tied to the tracks, and you’re riding on the train. Your insistence on nuance, your fetish for accuracy, your smug deconstruction of common sense — it doesn’t make you thoughtful. It doesn’t make you wise. It doesn’t make you progressive. It makes you an asshole. It makes you worse than a bystander. A bystander does nothing. He watches from afar. You step into the fray just to prod the victim. I’m not going to step in too, laying out my rebuttal over the screams. It’s just not worth it.

Here’s my resolution: As long as pimps, priests, and politicians know what a female body is, I do too. The moment they’re confused — the moment they hesitate, the moment they qualify, the moment they adopt the restraint and caution you demand from the targets of their abuse— then I’ll happily open myself up to ambiguity. Until then, I beg you. Reserve your philosopher’s curiosity, your scientific rigor, for the ten thousand other questions that don’t make a thought experiment out of an atrocity. What marks the division between knowledge and belief? How did life develop from non-life? At what point does a man losing his hair become bald and not merely thinning? Go tweet at Rogaine and get their thoughts on that conundrum. Leave rape crisis centers alone.

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Omg what a post! Applause 👏
HoardingSamphireSaurus · 05/01/2022 14:17

Aye. And I thought the worst Empress would offer up was a vivid re-imagination of some basic science.

FFS!

Helleofabore · 05/01/2022 14:19

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Jesus Wept! Empress REALLY?!?!?!

Wave your 'stiffy' in a child's face and all you can say is that the child shouldn't have been there in the first place?

What do you think you were defending when you typed that? Seriously what were you defending?

Well Hoarding It is the Laurie Penny argument for safeguarding.

And we have all seen it before.

Lovelyricepudding · 05/01/2022 14:40

That said, they have done a study on trans men who were given puberty blockers as girls. Bone scans have shown that their pelvises do not expand into the usual female wider shape and configuration, but remain narrow like a males pelivis. It’s why there are fertility and childbirth complications in transmen, they are more likely to require a c-section due to this nonfemale narrow pelvis. Their limbs also show higher bone density...which would in an archaeological setting be called “robust” bones...more indicative of a man

Where to start... prepubertal body shape is not that is a mature man. There are not childbirth complications in women who have had their puberty suppressed as they will never be pregnant - you need to go through puberty for that. Puberty blockers result in drastic reduction in adult (age) bone density - there is no way they would be mistaken for adult male 'robust' bones.

RepentMotherfucker · 05/01/2022 14:42

@Helleofabore

It’s biology. Look it up. Nothing to do with rights btw.

Are you talking pubescent boys?

I think by now adult males who know that it is no appropriate to expose the public to the fact that they are sexually aroused have learned mechanisms to cope with unwanted arousal. Or are you set on infantilising males to get your point across.

Additionally, if a male is caught where they are unable to control that erection, they also know that they are expected to remove themselves from public view.

Or, is this just another attempt to destabilise social mores around sexuality to accommodate fetishes.

This. I have never seen either my father or my husband nor any other decent man have this issue. I have only seen erections in public when the erection owner has specifically wanted me to.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 05/01/2022 14:46

Empress

Just the mere fact we can add or remove body hair, change voice boxes, put lactating breasts on a man or swap a vagina for a penis or vice versa all mean that various biological aspects relating to sex mean you can even today be born a biological male but then die no longer biologically male. And with advances going at the current pace, someone born today is going to have access to only more ways to alter their biology.

I think you are very badly overestimating what surgeons can do.There is no swapping going on!

extract
During a vaginoplasty surgery, a surgeon creates both an outer and inner vagina by using skin and tissue from a penis.

Your surgeon will use skin from the penis and scrotum to build the inner and outer labia of the vagina
Your surgeon will create a new opening for the urethra (so you can urinate)
Your surgeon will use tissue from your foreskin to build the new opening of the vagina (also called the introitus).

Vaginoplasty Procedure

During most vaginoplasties, your surgeon will use a skin graft to create a new vaginal canal (the inside wall of the vagina). To do this, your surgeon will take skin from your scrotum and thin it so it works well as a skin graft.

If there’s not enough skin from your scrotum to make your new vagina, then your surgeon can take extra skin from the sides of your abdomen where there won’t be a very noticeable scar.

To make your new vaginal canal, your surgeon will create a space between your rectum and bladder. Once your skin graft is inserted, your surgeon will place gauze or spongy material inside the new vaginal canal for 5 days. The gauze puts pressure on the skin graft so it grows like it should into the surrounding vaginal tissue.

This is a computer generated model of the procedure.

www.twitter.com/LabelFreeBrands/status/1428145928641286153?t=sy5wAnoKpbARWeOpurvocA&s=19

Artichokeleaves · 05/01/2022 14:58

This. I have never seen either my father or my husband nor any other decent man have this issue. I have only seen erections in public when the erection owner has specifically wanted me to.

This.

This is not normal behaviour in socially appropriate males with respect for others. Like regarding females' privacy and dignity as irrelevant and something they should not be entitled to, and sexual harassment of females: it is not a feature of being male, it is a bug.

Helleofabore · 05/01/2022 15:02

I think anyone who DOES think it is simply a matter of swapping body parts in or out, should check out the videos aggregated by Exulansic on Youtube.

Here is one to start.

There really is a distasteful lack of care in the lack of curiosity by some posters on these issues. This is the lives of young females that some posters are literally ignoring to maintain their 'it is just a matter of inverting penises and removing breasts etc.'

And before one poster comes on and declares 'faux concern for trans people', grow the fuck up. There are parents on this forum dealing with their daughters belief that surgery and hormones are that simple, and are the magic pill. Fed to them by people who fully believe the propaganda.

TheWeeDonkey · 05/01/2022 15:06

If you're born a Mr Potatohead, do you stay a Mr Potatohead until you get lost at the bottom of the toy box?

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 05/01/2022 15:07

Pseudo vaginas are not hugely like an actual vagina unless we consider them primarily to be a tube to stick a dick into. My vagina recoils at being compared to an artificial one.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 05/01/2022 15:12

ODFO @Whatiswrongwithmyknee!

You've started that bloody ear worm again...

Quim quivery, quim quivery,
Quim, quim, querr-ee

I am supposed to be bloody working!

Diggersaursarethebest · 05/01/2022 15:13

When you have two Mr Potato Heads and they both get lost at the bottom of the toy box, then you pull them out again to flog on ebay and discover you only have 3 arms but also 3pairs of feet 1and 5 eyebrows, do those Potato Heads remain biologically Potato Heads for their entire life and I am legally allowed to say that?

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 05/01/2022 15:13

Dear god I forgot the Smile

Just in case I am being Monitored!

Goatsaregreat · 05/01/2022 15:15

As someone said earlier - this thread deserves to be in Classics as a concrete example of everything women said is actually happening. Excusing flashing / indecent exposure towards a young girl as socially acceptable?

I think it’s a bit pearl clutchy to angst over a male person in a pool who might have a bit of stiffy

Safeguarding children from (a known) predator is now "pearl clutchy" Shock . I despair.

simmonslulu · 05/01/2022 15:20

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Pseudo vaginas are not hugely like an actual vagina unless we consider them primarily to be a tube to stick a dick into. My vagina recoils at being compared to an artificial one.
Pseudo vaginas are just a tube to stick a dick in (and I possess one) it has no purpose to give birth etc.

Transwoman have to accept that it is offensive to woman to suggest otherwise. As for the transplant of a womb and DNA technology to change XY to XX that is just a fantasy.

Helleofabore · 05/01/2022 15:22

I think a plastic Potato Head missing parts is always a plastic Potato Head yes. Just one missing parts.

Now.... if you stick a plastic Barbie arm onto a plastic Potato Head, they are still 'plastic' if you know what I mean. Although, the integrity of the Potato Head as an entity remains as always, a Potato Head.

Now, if you attached a set of glass eyes to the plastic Potato Head, they cease to be plastic.

Do you see how the 'biological' was being manipulated by one poster?

Describing the creation of body parts from someone's body, or implanted from another human, still means that person is 'biological', particularly if it is from that same human. It is the narrower 'genes' that remain unchanged.

It is just more playing on meaning to make it harder to define anything. And it is more playing on meanings to make it acceptable to call replica body parts the same as the authentic body parts of that name. etc etc etc.

Very tiresome.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2022 15:22

Louis Armstrong had Potato Head Dysphoria before it was cool.

VestofAbsurdity · 05/01/2022 15:23

@Goatsaregreat

As someone said earlier - this thread deserves to be in Classics as a concrete example of everything women said is actually happening. Excusing flashing / indecent exposure towards a young girl as socially acceptable?

I think it’s a bit pearl clutchy to angst over a male person in a pool who might have a bit of stiffy

Safeguarding children from (a known) predator is now "pearl clutchy" Shock . I despair.

You and me both.

There is something utterly repellent about excusing indecent exposure towards a young girl and is very suggestive of a underlying agenda, iyswim.

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