If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

I know the internet is a mad place, but there can't be many threads that include science fiction, Viking grave goods and a defence of penises in little girls' faces.

defence of penises in little girls' faces

Waving a red flag for all to see.

Oh my. I thought this thread had reached a low point when the TWAW side used the notion of sexist archaeologists mistakenly assuming that anyone buried with weapons was male as some kind of argument for their position.

I come back and someone actually thinks that there's nothing wrong with a man having an erect penis in front of a little girl?

Decent men don't behave like this.

@Beowulfa

I know the internet is a mad place, but there can't be many threads that include science fiction, Viking grave goods and a defence of penises in little girls' faces.

And all generated in the pursuit of educating bored housewives, no less!

I myself am not bored (or a housewife, but that is by the by). My primary feeling right now is mild nausea.

@EmpressCixi

So if it was a pool and the child was at the poolside, you would think it fine to put a semi erect penis in a 9-year olds face (50cm away I think is was)???

How do you know it was semi-erect? Perhaps the observer mistook normal size variation for erectness. I think it’s a bit pearl clutchy to angst over a male person in a pool who might have a bit of stiffy. It’s like angsting over a female person in a pool who might have a bit period blood leakage. Not within their control. Not an example of perversion. And besides, are you arguing that there should not be mixed sex swimming pools?

I think this post is worth highlighting. Overton window comes to mind.

The level of ignorance on display here is extraordinary. My jaw actually dropped at some of the things being posted. Are you not embarrassed to be so unaware, Cixi? You haven't a clue what is being discussed here but still you bang on in your ignorance. I cringe for you.

We have been told repeatedly to educate ourselves and that Google is our friend. May I suggest you take a wee bit of your own advice?

What is it with blokes being desperate to come here and wave their boners around?

Although I would posit that getting unexpected boners when confronted with little children in swimming pools is a problem. Something you might want to speak to a doctor about.

This is possibly the maddest thread of TRA-tropes I've ever seen on MN

It seems though, that there is a chance that the wildest tropes are coming from 'allies' and not trans people on this particular thread. That in itself is an enlightening aspect of the thread.

Not an example of perversion. And besides, are you arguing that there should not be mixed sex swimming pools?

Getting your erection in the face of a young girl and other unsuspecting women is "not a perversion". Of course, sure, It's not like exhibitionism and paedophilia are listed in the DSM or anything.
It's as if we're supposed to believe that no man anywhere, ever has a paraphilia (in fact one in twenty do).

Of course mixed sex options should stay in place it'd be highly impractical for a dad to not be able to take his daughter swimming.
But women should have women only, yknow meaning completely penis free spaces available as an option. It really is very simple.

I stepped away from this thread and now it seems someone is arguing for the freedom.of men to flash their genitals at women and girls?

@Lovelyricepudding
Yes, but it doesn’t matter because women make crap fire fighters 😂
risk is risk you know?

@Lovelyricepudding

I stepped away from this thread and now it seems someone is arguing for the freedom.of men to flash their genitals at women and girls?

I think that's what the entire TRA movement is really about, honestly.

Ah. We're on to comparing erections in swimming pools with menstruation are we? Jolly good. Nothing to see here. No fetishes or perversions whatsoever.

I think Freddie the transman proved that you can't change sex when he decided to stop taking the hormones and give birth. If that doesn't prove the point I don't know what does

Can we nominate this thread for Classics? It is the most hilarious one I have ever read. Mind-bogglingly bizarre and truly the best illustration of just how far from science/medicine/reality some people’s arguments are.

I actually had tears of laughter at the “I'm a medic/scientist” post, given the ramblings of the poster were the very antithesis of anything vaguely medical or scientific.

Ah, Mumsnet, this thread has it all - but it is especially fabulous at providing sunlight….

Oh lord 🤣 When will TRAs realise that it is they who are convincing the world of the gender critical position.

In their droves. Like this.

I think it’s a bit pearl clutchy to angst over a male person in a pool who might have a bit of stiffy. It’s like angsting over a female person in a pool who might have a bit period blood leakage.

Some men are just so bloody driven, really, really driven.

From desperate sci-fi womb transplants, to claiming people are unable to identify a penis - in almost the same breath as saying a penis is no indication of someone's sex anyway, to a male who took drugs to produce milk which he confessed was 'exciting', and now a convicted sex offender getting aroused by sitting next to a child, being compared to female menstruation.

It is comedic, because, it's so ludicrous - you can't help but snort.

But it is these people who are campaigning to change laws.

The wi spa incident, despite the subsequent outrage, is exactly what TRAs have been campaigning for. And is the entire reason why the receptionist had no choice but to allow a naked man into to a room full of naked women and children.

Trans people coming and say well not everyone is like this are irrelevant, in a way. It doesn't make any difference if they're not like it, the people who are changing the laws, are.

Hence wi spa, hence rapists in female prisons, etc.

So to people like empress, etc, the answer is no.

Men need to stay out of women spaces.

No.

I love the instructions to educate ourselves. Many of us ended up on this board as a result of us being allies who got a little wtf at something we thought might be a red flag and being told to educate ourselves

@IndigoToo

Can we nominate this thread for Classics? It is the most hilarious one I have ever read. Mind-bogglingly bizarre and truly the best illustration of just how far from science/medicine/reality some people’s arguments are.

I actually had tears of laughter at the “I'm a medic/scientist” post, given the ramblings of the poster were the very antithesis of anything vaguely medical or scientific.

Ah, Mumsnet, this thread has it all - but it is especially fabulous at providing sunlight….

Agreed. I think it should be posted together with the "break it down for me" thread whenever anyone comes here to ask questions about the whole ideology.

So the example is not a usual mixed sex spa’s jacuzzi or swimming pool, but some naked single sex spa that is violating heath and safety by allowing naked children into jacuzzi

No, they violated women's boundaries and child safeguarding by allowing a man to self ID into female only spaces so he could flash his penis at young girls.

you can even today be born a biological male but then die no longer biologically male

Don't be daft. 😂😂😂😂

This thread is great to show all the lurkers just how ridiculous things have become.

[quote HobgoblinGold]@Helleofabore because we are only just started to understand the complexities of sex and gender. That and the massive transphobia and misunderstanding and domination of the biomedical model in medicine.[/quote]
I know I am late back, but we have a 6pm cut off for electronic gadgets in this house and I ha a few jobs booked this morning. But...

I wanted to look at this because I have seen it usd by those desperate to prove that transgenderism is innate.

WELL DUH!!!

Just as it is now assumed that being gay is also mostly innate it is more likely than not going to be established that some deviation in 'normal' maturation will predispose an individual to being more 'gender fluid' than the binary of male and female.

That is NOT INEVITABLE. It will not be, like say blue eyes, red hair, freckles etc, be a single / group of genes that determine any part of an individual's make up. It will be more like fat, thin, alcoholic etc. It will take some envirnonmental impetus to kick start it.

In short it will be a combination of nature and nurture.

There is no misinderstanding or domination of the biomedical model in medecine or indeed any of the biological sciences. There is, rather, a more nuanced understanding of how some of the observed aberrations from that norm are intrinsic to the individual.

So if, in some but not all pregnancies, an internal or external 'thing' impacts upon the development of the foetus then we have a measurable, observable phenomenon. NOT a new sex, a sudden upheaval in what we know to be human. An addition to science.

An addition that has only been recognisable in this centiry, once the human genome was fully mapped. So don't get your hopes up and don't blather about it like you know what ypu are talking about. And especially don't use Scientific American as you root source. Try reading the list of studies they use for their opinion pieces.

Many here will be happy and well able to help you undertsand the complexities of the science involved.

Male people getting into female spaces is not equality.

Those male people do not have an equal entitlement to female resources and spaces and facilities because they are not female. Their equality needs must be met either within male resources or within new and specific resources.

You cannot take stuff off females to give to males. No. The End.

Go find another solution to your issues.

"put lactating breasts on a man or swap a vagina for a penis or vice versa all mean that various biological aspects relating to sex mean you can even today be born a biological male but then die no longer biologically male."

You really don't get it do you?
You are NOT swapping a vagina for a penis, or anything LIKE a penis. You are swapping it for a skin and flesh tube stitched onto someone's body, with no function. You are NOT creating anything LIKE a vagina in TW, its a surgically created hole with no function other than penetration, assuming it doesn't close with adhesions and fibrous scar tissue.
You cannot 'put lactating breasts' on a man, not without a whole concoction of artificial hormones. Said 'lactate' is a synthetic hormone infused fluid that has not been proven in any way shape or form to resemble human breast milk and has NEVER been used to nourish an infant exclusively.
THEY ARE NON FUNCTIONING MAN MADE REPLICAS OF ORGANS.

What you are describing are superficial body modifications, no more than having your tongue split, body piercings, eyeballs tattooed or any of the other things people do to themselves in the name of changing their outward appearance.
It does not alter their biology one BIT. They will die as they came in to this world, either biologically male or biologically female.

As for the argument about "stiffys" not being that bad? So it would be okay for a male teacher to have a "stiffy" around your teenage daughter in high school? How about your primary school age daughter? Infant daughter in nursey? After all, he can't help it, and its a bit "pearl clutchy" to suggest otherwise.

There is a reason safeguarding exists. And your argument is appalling, offensive and alarming, and really makes me question not only your scientific knowledge but also your moral compass.

If you are a woman you should be ashamed of that comment. If you are a mother, you should be doubly ashamed.
Children should not have to accept or be taught that they may encounter a clearly aroused male in any given situation, and just have to accept that this is normal.

Actually, I'm not convinced that you aren't actually a troll. Surely nobody can be this obtuse.

And if you did in truth care in the slightest about that word 'equality' that you keep waving around, you'd care about the equality and access needs of the females now without resources, facilities and essential needs being met so that male people can have their more special and valuable needs met.

You don't give a toss for 'equality' as a concept, it's just a word you hope will be powerful enough to mug females of their rights to benefit males. Male supremacism. Front and centre.