Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

999 replies

daisiesonmydress · 03/01/2022 12:05

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
ErrolTheDragon · 05/01/2022 10:18

So why do we think it’s correct to do the same to transwomen? If risk can be managed for women to increase equality, then why can it not be managed for the equality of transwomen too?

Completely different types of risk. One is in the context of professionals with training etc. The other is a cross section of the public, and the one generalisation we can make based on the evidence is that all forms of criminality, and particularly violent and sexual offences, are much higher in males than females. And that there's also evidence that the trans identity of males doesn't alter this.

EmpressCixi · 05/01/2022 10:18

@Helleofabore

Shall we also post the studies and statistics on flashing as being an entry point for other sex crimes too?

We also have those.

Why? Major derail of the thread to go from the biological reality of sex change into a tirade on sex crimes.
ErrolTheDragon · 05/01/2022 10:20

Why? Major derail of the thread to go from the biological reality of sex change into a tirade on sex crimes.

It really isn't.

EmpressCixi · 05/01/2022 10:20

@ErrolTheDragon

So why do we think it’s correct to do the same to transwomen? If risk can be managed for women to increase equality, then why can it not be managed for the equality of transwomen too?

Completely different types of risk. One is in the context of professionals with training etc. The other is a cross section of the public, and the one generalisation we can make based on the evidence is that all forms of criminality, and particularly violent and sexual offences, are much higher in males than females. And that there's also evidence that the trans identity of males doesn't alter this.

Risk is risk

And the risk in both is biological based on sex. Nothing to do with training. Training isn’t going to get a 8 stone woman able to carry a 15 stone man from a burning building, or off the battlefield or to defend herself against that same man if he’s a hardened criminal attacking her.

EmpressCixi · 05/01/2022 10:21

[quote Diggersaursarethebest]@EmpressCixi I mean you could just go and look up the case in question. There’s a whole Wikipedia page about it, it made that much noise. The spa may well have had to change their rules about who and their covered or uncovered genitalia are allowed in which areas due to this incident. It seems like the sex(as in genitalia)-based segregated areas were working well for this particular business with their particular cultural context (Korean style spa in the Korea town district in Los Angeles) before this incident occurred.[/quote]
Why should I? No one else is looking anything I say up so just returning the favour.

HaroldMeeker · 05/01/2022 10:23

[quote EmpressCixi]@Livpool
How is a (semi) erect penis in anyway like period blood?!

Because both are not totally within the persons control. Men cannot completely decide to get erect or not get erect, the same way women cannot completely prevent period leakage.[/quote]
Men don't decide to get a stiff.
So you're saying the transwoman in question is a man. Pretty much what the women in the women's spa were saying.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2022 10:23

I think it’s a bit pearl clutchy to angst over a male person in a pool who might have a bit of stiffy. It’s like angsting over a female person in a pool who might have a bit period blood leakage.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/30/police-told-attend-flashing-cases-person-failing-investigate/

Helleofabore · 05/01/2022 10:24

No Empress not a derail at all.

Sex is immutable. And sex crime behaviour for transitioned males remains at the same rate as for all other males. There is some discussion as to whether it is in fact higher.

This is a vital piece of the puzzle as to why sex matters and why it is important to females and all children to not allow unfactual concepts of 'sex can change' to be perpetuated.

One vital reason in a whole multitude of reasons.

So, would you like those statistics posted. I believe they were recently stated and not disputed at all to a parliamentary committee hearing.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2022 10:26

Force watchdog says indecent exposure should be treated more seriously and seen as a red flag

If indecent exposure is a red flag, what do you call it when someone sneers at women's concerns as 'pearl clutchy' when they raise the issue?

HaroldMeeker · 05/01/2022 10:26

Is glue sniffing trendy again?

Omicrone · 05/01/2022 10:27

Why? Major derail of the thread to go from the biological reality of sex change into a tirade on sex crimes.

How is it a derail? 98% of all sex crimes as perpetrated by one particular biological sex. I would say its very relevant.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2022 10:29

And I notice that it's the same poster who posits ludicrously unrealistic theories of the body (that belie a massive failure to comprehend the intricacy of biology let alone the humanity of a person), who also minimise, belittle and dismiss concerns about males exposing their erections to unconsenting observers.

And continue to sneer and insult the women on this thread.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2022 10:30

Anyway. I am hoping that someone with knowledge of genetics could maybe comment on the article posted earlier? About a possible genetic component to GD? I'd like to hear more about that, if anyone has any thoughts.

HaroldMeeker · 05/01/2022 10:30

I saw a different interpretation of the terf term the other day. Tired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits. I quite like it.

ErrolTheDragon · 05/01/2022 10:32

I think it’s a bit pearl clutchy to angst over a male person in a pool who might have a bit of stiffy.

I don't think anyone here is in the least bit angsty about blokes in mixed swimming pools who might inadvertently have a bit of a stiffy under their trunks. Hmm
But knowing that their dicks have a bit of the mind of their own, decent blokes use the mind in their skull to be considerate of other people using the facilities who really don't want to see more of it.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2022 10:32

Fuckwits are one thing. Lack of understanding and knowledge is something that can be solved.

I'm not so sure about people who take pleasure in displaying their inhumanity and hatred of women.

HaroldMeeker · 05/01/2022 10:33

It's simple contempt, isn't it?

Diggersaursarethebest · 05/01/2022 10:33

risk is risk
So this thread is full of nonsense but I think this is the most nonsensical statement I’ve seen here.
The whole point of risk is that you can calculate it, measure it. You weigh up the various outcomes with the likelihood of them happening and then decide how to procede.
risk is risk is like saying numbers are numbers in a discussion about whether you should eat a peanut butter sandwich or an apple.
Risk of what? And what magnitude of risk are we dealing with?
In the Wi-spa example, if naked penises are allowed in the women’s areas of the spa, the risk that female (non-be-penised) spa users will feel uncomfortable and embarrassed and outraged is going to be almost certain. Maybe if the spa’s empty cause it’s 3am if would be fine. Or maybe there’s one non-be-penised spa user there too but she’s not bothered about the naked penis. It’s possible. But highly unlikely.

Helleofabore · 05/01/2022 10:38

They used to say “risk” was why you couldn’t have women join the armed forces or police force or be fire fighters. Risk to colleagues, risk to themselves from criminals, risks to not being strong enough to carry a victim from a burning building. These were all real risks. They weren’t made up. But the correct response wasnt to ban women from these professions due to risk, was it?

Having had some experience with the military, it was due to sexist discrimination. I believe the same for police force and fire fighters. However, you are quite correct it is likely that a female fire fighter may have difficulty in carrying a victim out of a burning building. Hence, they have mixed teams.

Your point is another false comparator though. You are pointing out workplace sexist discrimination. We are discussing safeguarding. You can keep throwing false comparisons but they simply don't stick.

So why do we think it’s correct to do the same to transwomen? If risk can be managed for women to increase equality, then why can it not be managed for the equality of transwomen too?

Because, we are talking about safeguarding.

Should transitioned males be subject to workplace discrimination?

No, unless it is a role designated for females.

Should transitioned males by subject to the same discrimination as all males for the purposes of safeguarding?

Yes.

ErrolTheDragon · 05/01/2022 10:38

Risk is risk

At risk mitigation is risk mitigation.
Occupations where a certain degree of physical ability will have tests and training, which they should apply evenly - sure, that may mean there are some roles which have a lower proportion of women.

In other cases, the simplest first line of mitigation is sex segregation. Anyone who can't see this clearly doesn't really give a shit about womens rights.

Helleofabore · 05/01/2022 10:39

I could post something about 'males not being in control of their stiffies' and posting on a feminist thread, but I would be deleted.

Helleofabore · 05/01/2022 10:45

It’s biology. Look it up. Nothing to do with rights btw.

Are you talking pubescent boys?

I think by now adult males who know that it is no appropriate to expose the public to the fact that they are sexually aroused have learned mechanisms to cope with unwanted arousal. Or are you set on infantilising males to get your point across.

Additionally, if a male is caught where they are unable to control that erection, they also know that they are expected to remove themselves from public view.

Or, is this just another attempt to destabilise social mores around sexuality to accommodate fetishes.

Helleofabore · 05/01/2022 10:47

Besides which, females of all ages (just like males) are entitled to privacy and dignity.

That includes not being subject to any penises in any form in places they do not want to have penises included.

It is not just a safeguarding issue.

ArabellaScott · 05/01/2022 10:47

@Helleofabore

I could post something about 'males not being in control of their stiffies' and posting on a feminist thread, but I would be deleted.
Yes.

As this is 'Mumsnet', many of us are concerned about safeguarding and child protection.

Predatory behaviour is unexceptional. We need to get better at calling it out. (I don't mean 'we' as in us here on this board, but in society, generally).

How do we get to a point where we can discuss safeguarding and red flags clearly without fear of castigation or punishment?

Diggersaursarethebest · 05/01/2022 10:58

Can we have a nonsense competition?
‘Risk is risk’ therefore naked semi erect penises in women’s only spa spaces should be fine.
´biology is biology’ therefore I don’t need to define anything ever in order to a form a cohesive argument.
Sex is not gender therefore gender doesn’t matter.
Sex is not gender therefore sex doesn’t matter.
Sex is not gender except when it is.
´Statistics are statistics’ therefore risk is risk and biology is biology.
My feelings are immutable therefore your feelings don’t count.