If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

@HobgoblinGold

I'm very tired. Both in real life and in threads like this. My recent training to date has meant I have had to actively engage with the trans community to better understand their world and the issues they come across. Sadly I do get the general feeling on threads like this that there is anger, hatred, confusion, disbelief, and complete unwillingness to engage in any other debate other than womanhood is only open to AFAB.

I will now bow out this thread because I don't have the emotional energy or headspace to engage any further. The literature is out there if you care to look. I would also encourage you to join trans groups to try and broaden your ideas.

No anger here. No hatred.

Confusion, yes.

Disbelief, well yes. You're telling me that there are more than two sexes!

I am really happy to engage in the debate, Dr Hob. It's a shame you're away. I'd have liked to see more links.

Womanhood

Wtf us that anyway? A club? A gang?

I guess it's in sone people best interest to redefine woman as then they get loads more people whose sex is no longer congruent with what being a woman is now meant to mean

@HobgoblinGold

I'm very tired. Both in real life and in threads like this. My recent training to date has meant I have had to actively engage with the trans community to better understand their world and the issues they come across. Sadly I do get the general feeling on threads like this that there is anger, hatred, confusion, disbelief, and complete unwillingness to engage in any other debate other than womanhood is only open to AFAB.

I will now bow out this thread because I don't have the emotional energy or headspace to engage any further. The literature is out there if you care to look. I would also encourage you to join trans groups to try and broaden your ideas.

I hear you. I'm beyond tired of all this too, I'm exhausted trying to constantly defend female people's needs and rights from all this onslaught. I've actively engaged with the female community to better understand their world and the issues that they come across and I get the general feeling on threads like this that those pushing the agenda really do believe it is about nothing more than the needs, wishes and feelings of the male people they wish to facilitate.

It isn't. Female spaces are not all about male people. Female resources cannot centre around male people and male people's needs. If TW have needs that cannot be met in male spaces then by all means set up alternatives for them.

But you cannot remove female facilities, resources, language, needs and access from all female people to give them to male people. No. That is not going to happen. It harms and excludes and subordinates female people. And that you find female people saying no, female people matter too and other solutions must be found to be 'anger, hatred and confusion' says a very great deal about your prejudice and sexism against women. You don't see them as justified in having things of their own, or saying or doing anything that sets boundaries to male feelings and desires. That's your problem right there.

Your unwillingness to engage in debate is fundamentally about your refusal to hear women or any other solution but females must lose everything so male people must be happier. No. Take that sexist attitude and sort it out. Male people's issues can and MUST be met in other ways than sacrificing women's rights to them. There are other solutions. Male people will not suffer from the word 'no', any more than female people will - and you have no hesitation in saying that to them!

The endless confustication about who is what sex is only solely and exclusively relevant in trying to argue female people out of their rights. That's it. That's all.

No. No one changes sex. Females are a distinct sex class. They cannot be merged with males because males would really like them to. Females are not a sacrifice or resource for males to use. If you don't have the emotional headspace for that, it is not the problem of female people to solve for you.

It seems a common theme that someone will drop a load of unsubstantiated bullshit that can easily be disproven and then "bow out" of the argument on the basis of the women here being so uneducated we simply CAN'T hold an argument.

Or maybe, just maybe we have jobs we have to get back to and are not ladies of leisure?

Anyway, biology is more than your genetics of XX or XY. Genetic sex is mostly a binary, as intersex is rare but also a reality. Do the argument that you “can’t change sex” is purely based on the concept that you cannot change your DNA from XY to XX or vice versa. Which is why it is more accurate to say that a person born genetically male will most probably die genetically male than it is to use the broader term of “biologically” because biological features associated with ones sex other than DNA can are are absolutely changeable. Just the mere fact we can add or remove body hair, change voice boxes, put lactating breasts on a man or swap a vagina for a penis or vice versa all mean that various biological aspects relating to sex mean you can even today be born a biological male but then die no longer biologically male. And with advances going at the current pace, someone born today is going to have access to only more ways to alter their biology.

Again, biology is not genetics. Genetics is only a small part of biology.

I would really, just once, like to have this conversation with someone capable of seeing female people as equally human to male ones, who has a grip on and owns the fact that they basically believe in male supremacism.

Male spaces should be all about male people.
And apparently female ones should be all about male people too.

And female people are full of hate and anger and confusion when they don't for some reason go whoopee and embrace their own subordination and exclusion, and actually care about other women.

there is anger, hatred, confusion and disbelief…

This is what I don’t get. I don’t really buy into and sex/gender stereotypes. Anyone should do whatever they want in terms of clothes and interests.

But we need sex segregated spaces. I don’t want anyone with a semi-erect penis to shower naked next to my 12-year old daughter. Apparently a naked person with a semi-erect penis tried to get into a jacuzzi next to a 9-year old girl at WiSpa, so this happens.

Why would any sane person say that this is hate? Why is it hateful to say that you don’t want a semi-erect exposed penis close to your face? I feel so sorry for that 9-year old girl, it must have been so traumatic.

We need sex segregation in some cases based on observed sex. Semi-erect and erect penises (especially exposed ones) should stay out of women’s prisons, hospital wards, communal showers and dormitories.

If someone who has a penis is interested in a (fully clothed) knitting circle meet up over tea, that is very different.

@Artichokeleaves
Your manifesto about women’s rights sort of falls apart as you are ultra focussed on male people wanting x,y,z and demanding sacrifices from all the female people which is ridiculous because you’re assuming all trans people are male, when they’re not? There are plenty of “female people” asking for the exact same things. So there’s an equality of asking, there is no targeted attack on women’s rights.

I would just like somebody to explain why we need words for male and female as defined by reproductive roles/anatomy for every species that has sexual reproduction, but not our own. Thank you.

Apparently a naked person with a semi-erect penis tried to get into a jacuzzi next to a 9-year old girl at WiSpa, so this happens.

Under 16s should not be in jacuzzis. It’s a health and safety hazard to the child.

If you decide to augment yourself to try and be female you still are not

When the archeologist digs you up they will say male with lots of plastic surgery

Or maybe, just maybe we have jobs we have to get back to and are not ladies of leisure?

Nice stereotyping there. I have a job, thanks, and I’d also like to point out that you’re addressing an audience that I know for a fact has a range of jobs and expert knowledge, from medical to technical to legal to every other kind of job you can imagine. Clearly, you think both that women here don’t work, AND that not working outside the home is some kind of evidence of lack of intellect or understanding. The usual description of that kind of view is “howlingly sexist”.

Just the mere fact we can add or remove body hair, change voice boxes, put lactating breasts on a man or swap a vagina for a penis or vice versa

Ah, the Mr Potato Head school of biology.

Ah, the Mr Potato Head school of biology.

Precisely accurate.

@bordermidgebite

If you decide to augment yourself to try and be female you still are not

When the archeologist digs you up they will say male with lots of plastic surgery

Or will they? Forensic archaeologists determine sex by looking at bone structure. Mostly the pelvis shape and also the general gracile or robustness of the limbs. There is in some ethnicities certain skull features associated more commonly but not exclusively with male than female such as lesser supraorbital bossing, more angular jaw, longer nasal bones, etc.

That said, they have done a study on trans men who were given puberty blockers as girls. Bone scans have shown that their pelvises do not expand into the usual female wider shape and configuration, but remain narrow like a males pelivis. It’s why there are fertility and childbirth complications in transmen, they are more likely to require a c-section due to this nonfemale narrow pelvis. Their limbs also show higher bone density...which would in an archaeological setting be called “robust” bones...more indicative of a man.

Finally, archaeologists also depend or are biased by the grave goods with the persons skeletal remains. If you’ve lived as a trans-man or trans-woman you would most probably be buried with items reflecting your gender, not your genetic sex. There have been well known cases of “warriors” identified as male by archaeologists based on skeletal remains plus grave goods, only to be turned upside down when these same remains have their DNA analysed and it comes back XX. So they have a big oops moment and realise that society x, y years ago had female warriors.

So with puberty blockers and hormone therapy actively, today changing the adult bone structure of an XX person to mimic an XY person. (They have not yet done same study on transwomen). This inability to tell the two apart without DNA tests is only going up get much harder than it already is.

@Sophoclesthefox

Or maybe, just maybe we have jobs we have to get back to and are not ladies of leisure?

Nice stereotyping there. I have a job, thanks, and I’d also like to point out that you’re addressing an audience that I know for a fact has a range of jobs and expert knowledge, from medical to technical to legal to every other kind of job you can imagine. Clearly, you think both that women here don’t work, AND that not working outside the home is some kind of evidence of lack of intellect or understanding. The usual description of that kind of view is “howlingly sexist”.

Just the mere fact we can add or remove body hair, change voice boxes, put lactating breasts on a man or swap a vagina for a penis or vice versa

Ah, the Mr Potato Head school of biology.

I was responding to a stereotypical comment about myself, saying I am not a lady of leisure. I wasn’t calling anyone who stuck around on the thread that. Woke up with a chip on your shoulder did you?

Potato Head School of Biology....is that your alma mater then? Never heard of it.

Your manifesto about women’s rights sort of falls apart as you are ultra focussed on male people wanting x,y,z and demanding sacrifices from all the female people which is ridiculous because you’re assuming all trans people are male, when they’re not?

I doubt any regular MNer who is directly answering your posts assumes any such thing. We are well aware, some of us are directly dealing on a daily basis with gender ideology and how it effects females in our family.

I am surprised to see that whopper laid down on this thread.

There are plenty of “female people” asking for the exact same things.

What things? Asking for female single sex spaces to be opened up to males?

I would love to see your evidence for that. Or is it ‘Google is your friend’. In which case, shall we start posting the surveys that show the majority of females are certainly NOT asking for males with penises to be included in single sex spaces.

Or did you mean something else?

So there’s an equality of asking, there is no targeted attack on women’s rights.

Except, females have a set of rights and protections that are in addition to ‘male’ rights. They come in under anti-discrimination and safeguarding as well as female sports etc.

So, I think you are have not thought that ‘equality of asking’ through, because the rights and protections are not symmetrical.

And you are out of date. It has been established that there IS a conflict in rights between the groups.

Children under 16 shouldn’t be in a jacuzzi

Really??? That is your argument?? So if it was a pool and the child was at the poolside, you would think it fine to put a semi erect penis in a 9-year olds face (50cm away I think is was)???

Just wow!!!! And then people wonder why there is some anger from mums regarding this. There is a name for people who think that adults should be free to expose their genitalia to children.

As for the jacuzzi, it seems that depending on the temperature and duration, it can be perfectly fine as long as the child is above 5. The American Association of Pediatrics has not said anything against this and the Center for Disease Control suggests the 5 year limit.

kidspluspgh.com/doctors-notes/hot-tub-safety/

www.verywellfamily.com/when-can-grandchildren-hot-tub-spa-1696192

Ah, the Mr Potato Head school of biology.

I just spat out my tea!!

Thank you sophocles!

I did not know that Viking warriors had puberty blockers available.

Or that people were still buried with ‘grave goods’.

Good to know. I learn something everyday.

Right. It's a pity HobGob's away, but I'd like to look at this study they linked to.

'Some of the first biological evidence of the incongruence transgender individuals experience, because their brain indicates they are one sex and their body another, may have been found in estrogen receptor pathways in the brain of 30 transgender individuals. '

30 is a very small sample, but okay. Seems the smallness of sample has led them to call this 'preliminary', so has this been published or peer reviewed?

'"Twenty-one variants in 19 genes have been found in estrogen signaling pathways of the brain critical to establishing whether the brain is masculine or feminine," says Dr. J. Graham Theisen, obstetrician/gynecologist '

Is a brain 'masculine' or 'feminine'? We can actually test for this?

Reading on it seems to be extrapolating from animal behaviour:

'Animal studies have helped identify four areas of the brain with pathways leading to development of a male or female brain, and the investigators focused on those likely also present in humans. Laboratory studies have indicated that disrupting these brain pathways in males and females during this critical period results in cross sex behavior, like female rodents mounting and thrusting and males taking on a more traditional female posture when mating. '

I'm a know-nothing. Can anyone with greater knowledge tell me what the quality of this (very small) survey is like? It looks interesting to me on first reading that there may be a testable, verifiable component of gender dysphoria. Then presumably we could test for this genetic variant?

@EmpressCixi

Apparently a naked person with a semi-erect penis tried to get into a jacuzzi next to a 9-year old girl at WiSpa, so this happens.

Under 16s should not be in jacuzzis. It’s a health and safety hazard to the child.

The gold just keeps on coming !

And it gets twisted and more twisted.

• link was www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm

their limbs show higher bone density. Are you saying that puberty blockers increase bone density in transmen?

That is just a plain lie. It reduces bone density to dangerously low levels.

This lying actually pisses me off

segm.org/the_effect_of_puberty_blockers_on_the_accrual_of_bone_mass

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7433770/

www.transgendertrend.com/puberty-blockers-effects-bone-density/

This is just a quick Google search on bone density and puberty blockers.

And this is the study: www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53500-y

Archiologists have recently worked out that they were in the habit of making sexist assumptions based on grave goods

And as an adult who as a child was fortunate enough to be born before puberty blockers were commonplace , can I just note that I feel that use of puberty blockers for children feels to me like an attempt to sterilise my kind

So yes, you may get very negative vibes from me , you send hatred and fear out it gets reflected back at you after all

@Helleofabore
I did not say Viking warriors or any premodern society had puberty blockers. I said future archaeologists digging up transmen could very well identify them as male due to the current changes in bone structure observed as a result of puberty blockers.

Archaeologists have confused the sexes in the past even in populations with no puberty blockers was my point.

Have some more coffee, get that brain cell firing.