If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

@HobgoblinGold

I'm very tired. Both in real life and in threads like this. My recent training to date has meant I have had to actively engage with the trans community to better understand their world and the issues they come across. Sadly I do get the general feeling on threads like this that there is anger, hatred, confusion, disbelief, and complete unwillingness to engage in any other debate other than womanhood is only open to AFAB.

I will now bow out this thread because I don't have the emotional energy or headspace to engage any further. The literature is out there if you care to look. I would also encourage you to join trans groups to try and broaden your ideas.

God you're patronising. The literature is out there. We've read it. You are reading things into it which are not scientifically proven but are confirming your existing bias. Disagreeing with you is not evidence of not having educated ourself FGS. Do you think if I read the bible and then don't become Christian, it's because I've not read the literature?

And no, biological males have no place in deciding whether the sex-based protections which were put in place because of women's vulnerabilities are still require, in the same way that white people should never be the ones deciding whether racism is still a problem.

We are very willing to engage in debate. Debate means sharing opinions and facts and doing so in a respectful way. When we find someone willing to do that there will be enthusiastic engagement.

I think trans people do change aspects of their biological sex. Sex isn’t just chromosomes.

Trans people change aspects of their biological body. Some of these aspects may be sex characteristics of some level.

These people remain the sex they were born, just with modified body parts and artificially modified chemistry.

They have not ‘changed sex’. They have changed their body.

And yes, sex IS more than chromosomes.

@HobgoblinGold

I'm very tired. Both in real life and in threads like this. My recent training to date has meant I have had to actively engage with the trans community to better understand their world and the issues they come across. Sadly I do get the general feeling on threads like this that there is anger, hatred, confusion, disbelief, and complete unwillingness to engage in any other debate other than womanhood is only open to AFAB.

I will now bow out this thread because I don't have the emotional energy or headspace to engage any further. The literature is out there if you care to look. I would also encourage you to join trans groups to try and broaden your ideas.

I do hope you don’t end up doing an obstetrics rotation. How would you be able to tell which of the many sexes are giving birth?

Many of us do not believe in gender ideology precisely because we have read the “literature” and understood all the issues and arguments extremely well, and found them to be a load of unscientific, confused and conceptually incoherent hokum, full of religiose grandiosity, magical thinking, self-obsession, poorly understood identity politics and holey as anything to be quite frank.

""There is lots of variation in biology, so what if a MtF voice, breasts, vagina, vulva, labia, uterus, voice etc are all feminised by surgery. So what if it’s hormone or laser surgery removing the body and facial hair. So what if puberty blockers result in female levels of muscle and bone density. The fact is it’s still biologically permanently done to a male body such that it is no longer biologically male. The human in question doesn’t have to be exactly, biologically a female, to not be biologically male at death.""

In this case a man who suffered an accidental penectomy and castration in a traumatic accident would no longer be "biologically" male. A woman who had a complete hysterectomy would cease to be female. A woman post menopause would cease to be female.
Bollocks.

And to the "biologist/medic" who said we start off as neither male nor female, you are misinformed. Sex is determined at conception.

This thread is
comedy
fucking
gold

@HobgoblinGold

I'm very tired. Both in real life and in threads like this. My recent training to date has meant I have had to actively engage with the trans community to better understand their world and the issues they come across. Sadly I do get the general feeling on threads like this that there is anger, hatred, confusion, disbelief, and complete unwillingness to engage in any other debate other than womanhood is only open to AFAB.

I will now bow out this thread because I don't have the emotional energy or headspace to engage any further. The literature is out there if you care to look. I would also encourage you to join trans groups to try and broaden your ideas.

Do you not think it would be a bit invasive and intimidating for the attendees if a bunch of feminists who you describe as having "anger, hatred, confusion, disbelief and complete unwillingness to engage in debate" joined trans groups to educate themselves?

So you are not trans, but you have recently completed some form of diversity training. What, pray tell me, did they tell you in that diversity training that made you feel entitled to invite non-trans people to join trans groups? Especially people you imply you can't handle typing at and to?

Are trans people zoo exhibits now? Roll up, roll up to gawk at the people with gender dysphoria?

Either you really need to start seeing people with gender dysphoria as people, or you're making claims you don't actually believe. Because there is no way I would invite people I thought to be angry and full of hate to have a chat with my trans friends.

Do you not actually have any trans friends yourself?

I think trans people do change aspects of their biological sex. Sex isn’t just chromosomes.

Aspects?
If you see it as "changing aspects of sex" rather than just cosmetic surgery, then genital surgery would make an mtf person more of a woman in your eyes.

If a soldier has his genitals blown off by an IED, which has been a fairly common injury in the recent wars, is he also more of a woman, or is he a man with an injury?

A man with a micropenis? A man with a botched circumcision? Maybe a few adhesions? Is he marginally more woman, or is there a specific point at which the penis becomes sufficient to guarantee manhood?

Is Keira Bell less of a woman than I am because her voice is lower? What about her facial hair? What about women with naturally occurring thick facial hair?

If you chunk sex into aspects you end up with a version of a sliding scale - a spectrum, if you like - where some men aren't manly enough and some women aren't womanly enough. The tipping point is arbitrary.

I will now bow out this thread because I don't have the emotional energy or headspace to engage any further. The literature is out there if you care to look. I would also encourage you to join trans groups to try and broaden your ideas.

You realise you just discounted a trans person’s testimony right here on this thread?

Yes. We have read a great deal of the ‘literature’. Because that is what it is - literature. You linked an article about a study about the genes prevalent to people with gender dysphoria.

It is you who is then telling us that everyone with gender dysphoria seems to magically be another sex.

You are tired? Oh, well. We should just take your ‘educated’ word for it then. I happen to know a couple of ‘medics’ who work in gender clinics and they most definitely do not agree with you. So, it is not just people posting on a forum that disagree with you.

But patronise away.

Sex is not binary. Genetics, neurobiology, and hormones all play a role.

Human sex absolutely is binary. Because there are precisely 2 gametes. One is large and immobile, the other is small and mobile. It is this simple scientific fact. If you dispute the binary nature of human sex then you need to provide evidence of a third gamete or a spectrum of gametes.

Evidence of third gametes or any contribution to reproduction made by these newly identified sexes has been requested.

And request denied ….

No speggs for us tonight.

In my experience, most people who say sex isn't binary are very binary in their thoughts of what gender they think people should transition to; they support transwomen and transmen only.

The remainder, of course, are not.

So here's a question for anyone on the thread who says sex isn't binary.

Gender nullification surgery. Yea or nay?

quote from surgeon's website

While many patients might be interested in transitioning into either a male or female identity, there are plenty of individuals who feel that their gender identity does not quite conform in one direction or the other. Gender nullification surgery can enable non-conforming patients to enjoy a relatively smooth genital area.

Nullification creates a relatively continuous and mostly unbroken transition from the abdomen down into the genital area, enabling gender non-conforming patients to enjoy a body that looks closer on the outside to the way they feel on the inside.

AM I A GOOD CANDIDATE?

The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) has standards of care in place that require patients over eight-teen have two letters from mental health providers, stating their readiness for surgery. Clients must be taking hormones and be non-smokers.

Phallus-preserving vaginoplasty has been shown to have a positive, lasting benefit for transmen and nonbinary individuals who desire non-standard gender affirmation surgery.

If you’re interested in this procedure, or one of the other non-standard gender surgeries we offer, we recommend reaching out to us and setting up your consultation. There are numerous ways that we can allow you to enjoy the gender identity that you prefer.

Reach out and set up your consultation, and we’ll learn about your gender identity, and help you by developing a surgical plan that unites your outward appearance with your personal gender identity. Set up your consultation, and learn more about what we can do for you today

www.alignsurgical.com/non-binary/nullification/

In response to the OP:

Abso fucking lutely.

Everyone is somehow through an emeshment of genetics, neurobiology, hormones, society, culture, home life, influenced to become there own type of sex. To simply denote someone's sex on the presence or absence of gentilaia alone is too simple

Sex is influenced by society, culture and your home life? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Just when you think you've heard all the batshit they bring more.

Do you seriously not understand the difference between a person's unchangable, actual sex and some sex role stereotypes and personality AKA 'gender identity'?

To define someone's sex and/or gender based on a genetic test alone would be reductionist and unscientific

To define someone's sex by a genetic test is perfectly reasonable if there is, in very rare cases, any doubt as to what sex a person is.

You can't test genetically for the thing believers call a 'gender' as that is entirely in a persons mind and will likely be influenced by external factors.

and complete unwillingness to engage in any other debate other than womanhood is only open to AFAB

No one is assigned anything at birth and you coming here and telling women that being a woman is just a feeling men can have too, or even worse, a male genetic abnormality, IS reductionist, unscientific and deeply fucking offensive.

As someone else said, this thread is comedy gold. I was going to bed an hour ago and then couldn't put down my phone.

"and complete unwillingness to engage in any other debate other than womanhood is only open to AFAB"

Women cannot turn into men and men cannot turn into women. It's seriously weird to even have to make that argument! You can choose to live in accordance with male/female stereotypes and call yourself whatever you like but you cannot magically change sex, with or without hormones or surgery.

Sometimes it really feels like a parallel universe when reading some of these TRA arguments. It's so hard to accept that people really believe that sex is some kind of magical spectrum and you can just pick and choose where you want to be on it.

Yes you do.
We cannot as yet change the chromosomes in our cells. We cannot change whether a X or Y gamete got to our mother’s egg first.

In this thread we've had it all.

• You can definitely change sex
• You definitely can't change sex and trans people know this
• You definitely can't change sex, I had to see a shrink because I know this (I'm sorry, @simmonslulu - sounds awful)
• Wibbly-wobbly sexy-wexy

I'm pretty sure some of these are mutually exclusive. If we could stick with just one, I'd appreciate it, as I can only believe in so many impossible things before breakfast.

Sometimes it really feels like a parallel universe when reading some of these TRA arguments.

Yup. A parallel universe where sperggs exist and feminists just love sex stereotypes!

I'm a "back to basics" person at the moment. I'm insisting on definitions and evidence every fucking time because without a common language and a grounding in observable reality we have absolutely no hope of resolution. Though I admit my penchant for Star Trek and love of the universal translator may be influencing my insistence on the clarification of language.

I can only believe in so many impossible things before breakfast.

At least 6 I hope! I hate that book tho.

Wealthy white men live in a world where they believe they are entitled to absolutely everything they want.

-And if they want the reality of sex being immutable and determined at the fertilisation of their mothers egg to be untrue, their sense of entitlement causes them to actually, truly believe it must be untrue. For no other reason than they are accustomed to getting what they want.

Especially the parts that cost money. Clothes, cosmetic surgery, prescriptions, make-up etc. So long have we lived under capitalism, that those who have money believe everything can be bought. Including biological reality.

It is beyond ironic that the theory pushing this belief, Queer Theory, believes itself to be ‘edgy’ and non-conforming. It is the most neoliberal, individualistic, the truth of anything is determined by those with the most money perspective to emerge from the social sciences yet.

Oh and anyone reading along, if you haven’t come across Queer Theory, please make sure you look up Michel Foucault.

Make sure you read what motivated him to want to destabilise societal norms around sex definition and sexuality. His penchant for child sexual abuse.

Note, I am not saying trans people are abusers in any way.

I am saying the person some say has had the most influence on queer theory was a known abuser and that motivated him directly to work actively on lowering safeguards for children in France. For his own purpose.

Goodness me, 20 pages when the answer is just “Yes”.

But wonderfully illustrative of the mental convolutions required in order to give any other answer.

Got up this morning hoping that the thread would have exploded overnight, but alas, it seems our science denying friends have done their mandatory drive-by scolding, and then floated off into the gender netherworld.

It seems a common theme that someone will drop a load of unsubstantiated bullshit that can easily be disproven and then "bow out" of the argument on the basis of the women here being so uneducated we simply CAN'T hold an argument.
Or could it be that they have made a total, utter and unadulterated arse of themselves spouting anti science claptrap they have clearly picked up on an internet forum and accepted as "gospel" truth?

Ladies, at least now we know it just a few years away before men are able to conceive and get pregnant, and that a successful cross sex uterine implantation has already happened. Science is fucking amazing isn't it? I think they even said a c-section 'may' have to be carried out. I may have actually laughed and peed myself a little at that.
DNA will NEVER be altered regardless of what advances science makes. Every brand new cell that is born in your body carries your genetic code until the day you die.

It really IS the new religion.
I've said it here before.
You are entitled to your own opinion.
You are NOT entitled to your own facts.

hobgoblin I can well imagine you’re tired. As I said upthread, you must live in a world of such inchoate chaos, such a hellscape of uncertainty where you walk down the street telling yourself that the most basic knowledge you formed as an infant - this is a man, this is a woman- is not to be trusted.

It must be exhausting.

Fortunately, I have good news for you. Your childhood understanding was correct. Humans come in two flavours, male and female, and this does not vary. Relax.

So, to recap the thread.

• Pretty much nobody believes that trans people change their sex (though that position has been put forward on this thread)
• Pretty much nobody believes that trans people remain the same sex as they were born (though that position has also been put forward on this thread)
• Nobody really knows what sex they are anyway because it is impossibly complex and unknowable (though this complexity does not prevent trans people changing their unknowable sex, and it is hateful to suggest that they don’t do this)
• the future is silicon based

Sex is not binary. Oh, but it it is, I guarantee it.

Genetics, neurobiology, and hormones all play a role. Well yes, in that females are XX and males are XY, but neurobiology is the study of the cells of the nervous system, nothing to do with one's sex.

One's biology can change as no one starts of as just one or the other. Yes we do; sex is determined at conception.

Everyone is somehow through an emeshment of genetics, neurobiology, hormones, society, culture, home life, influenced to become there [sic] own type of sex. Oh please no, we don't need influencers to tell us what sex to choose

Sex: it's a binary thing.

@borntobequiet

Goodness me, 20 pages when the answer is just “Yes”.

But wonderfully illustrative of the mental convolutions required in order to give any other answer.

Indeed. Its really quite astounding isn't it?

So if you buy into the idea that sex somehow determined loads of things about you then you cannot see how sex can be simple, immutable and binary because it's clear that humans are really quite diverse and you can't really tell much about a person From knowing their sex

Of course if you view sex as just the reproductive biology bits then that is clearly nuts - why should reproductive biology affect your choice of clothes (beyond the handling of leakage ) or your enjoyment of football , ballet or whatever - there is no need to expect women to have certain behaviours because they are just diverse humans

The first approach is so regressive and is the thought pattern that meant sone couldn't vote or get a mortgage. Because you know, sex determined that their brains were weak and full of fluff