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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

999 replies

daisiesonmydress · 03/01/2022 12:05

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

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13
ArabellaScott · 04/01/2022 23:21

Hob, I have to go to bed but I am interested to read your link and the original study further in the morning. Thanks for engaging. Smile

HobgoblinGold · 04/01/2022 23:21

@foxgoosefinch

I'm a medic/scientist

FlyingOink · 04/01/2022 23:23

influenced to become there own type of sex
What the fuck does this mean

FlyingOink · 04/01/2022 23:23

[quote HobgoblinGold]@foxgoosefinch

I'm a medic/scientist[/quote]
Hahahaha

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 04/01/2022 23:24

Right, what are you trying to claim, exactly. You have an article about a genetic link for people who experience gender dysphoria.

This doesn't make these people another sex. If you read an article about a gene for a liver condition or a gene for depression, would you think the people with it were another sex or another species?

Everyone is somehow through an emeshment of genetics, neurobiology, hormones, society, culture, home life, influenced to become there own type of sex

Now you are claiming there are 7 billion human sexes.

How many sexes are there in dogs then? What about sheep?

FlyingOink · 04/01/2022 23:25

[quote HobgoblinGold]@Omicrone

To define someone's sex and/or gender based on a genetic test alone would be reductionist and unscientific. Just like to do exactly the same by looking at whether someone has a penis or a vulva.[/quote]
How would you define it then

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 04/01/2022 23:25

[quote HobgoblinGold]@foxgoosefinch

I'm a medic/scientist[/quote]
Is no-one willing to assign you on the medic/scientist spectrum?

foxgoosefinch · 04/01/2022 23:26

[quote HobgoblinGold]@foxgoosefinch

I'm a medic/scientist[/quote]
Haha! You wouldn’t have linked to that study if you were. And:

To define someone's sex and/or gender based on a genetic test alone would be reductionist and unscientific. Just like to do exactly the same by looking at whether someone has a penis or a vulva

Pull the other one - it’s got bells on it!

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 04/01/2022 23:26

[quote HobgoblinGold]To illustrate the complexity of sex and gender. This is just one article. If you do have access to scientific journals, please look instead of patting each other on the back on mumsnet

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm[/quote]
What do you think this proves? It's a tiny study on people already taking artificial hormones, is largely speculative and does not appear to have been published in a peer-reviewed journal. If differences were found in a study with enough power to be meaningful, we would still be unable to separate out cause and effect. Even if we were able to predict, perhaps from data collected at a child's birth or very early months, which children would become transgender, we would still need to examine societies construction of the concept of gender in order to make any sense of the findings. For example, the idea of females thrusting being somehow more male is not an objective conclusions from the data unless we have already accepted that thrusting is an entirely male trait. This is like saying that fancying women is a male trait and therefore finding brain correlates which enable you to tell who will fancy women also tells you who is male/ more male. Women fancy women too and perhaps they also 'thrust' - this does not make them any less of a woman and I think you'd rightly piss off thousands and thousands of lesbians if you suggested that.

This does not show what you think it does. Best not to pat yourself on the back. Best also to stop being so hideously patronising.

Omicrone · 04/01/2022 23:27

[quote HobgoblinGold]@Omicrone

To define someone's sex and/or gender based on a genetic test alone would be reductionist and unscientific. Just like to do exactly the same by looking at whether someone has a penis or a vulva.[/quote]
It's a complete wonder as to how the human race managed to get as far as it did if none of us know who are the men and who are the women.

It's also a complete wonder as to how the human race has known which particular humans to rape, murder at birth, deny a vote, an education, an abortion, a promotion to for millenia?

Are you saying in your ideal world, there would be no segregation by sex, that we don't actually know who we are segregating when we segregate by sex anyway, and that if everything was mixed sex that would benefit women (whatever 'women' are....)?

FlyingOink · 04/01/2022 23:27

@HobgoblinGold how would you define the sex of an individual, if you aren't using genes or genitals?

Sex not gender. How do you define it?

Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 23:28

[quote HobgoblinGold]@Helleofabore because we are only just started to understand the complexities of sex and gender. That and the massive transphobia and misunderstanding and domination of the biomedical model in medicine.[/quote]
How about, males and females with gender dysphoria, are still males and females with gender dysphoria?

You are heavily invested in trying to destabilise science that is clear.

There are no third, or fourth, or fifth sexes. No matter how you try to relabel it.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 04/01/2022 23:29

[quote HobgoblinGold]@Omicrone

To define someone's sex and/or gender based on a genetic test alone would be reductionist and unscientific. Just like to do exactly the same by looking at whether someone has a penis or a vulva.[/quote]
Identifying is not defining.

If we're talking scientific then we need a proper, clear definition of sex and gender. This has been asked a million times on mumsnet but no-one is able to provide a definition. Will you be the person brave enough to do that? As you're a scientist this should not be too difficult?

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 04/01/2022 23:30

It's also a complete wonder as to how the human race has known which particular humans to rape, murder at birth, deny a vote, an education, an abortion, a promotion to for millenia?

Totally. How do the taliban know which humans to deny an education to?

FlyingOink · 04/01/2022 23:31

This is like saying that fancying women is a male trait and therefore finding brain correlates which enable you to tell who will fancy women also tells you who is male/ more male.
Sounds like something Iran would research into, and it's not a million miles away from invert theory. All the pink/blue brain stuff turns out to be both sexist and homophobic doesn't it?

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 04/01/2022 23:32

@FlyingOink

This is like saying that fancying women is a male trait and therefore finding brain correlates which enable you to tell who will fancy women also tells you who is male/ more male. Sounds like something Iran would research into, and it's not a million miles away from invert theory. All the pink/blue brain stuff turns out to be both sexist and homophobic doesn't it?
Yep.
Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 23:32

[quote HobgoblinGold]To illustrate the complexity of sex and gender. This is just one article. If you do have access to scientific journals, please look instead of patting each other on the back on mumsnet

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm[/quote]
This article refers to a small study. Do you know at what point in transition these people were gene tested?

HobgoblinGold · 04/01/2022 23:34

I'm very tired. Both in real life and in threads like this. My recent training to date has meant I have had to actively engage with the trans community to better understand their world and the issues they come across. Sadly I do get the general feeling on threads like this that there is anger, hatred, confusion, disbelief, and complete unwillingness to engage in any other debate other than womanhood is only open to AFAB.

I will now bow out this thread because I don't have the emotional energy or headspace to engage any further. The literature is out there if you care to look. I would also encourage you to join trans groups to try and broaden your ideas.

Fieldofgreycorn · 04/01/2022 23:34

It makes sense then, that men who take artifical oestrogen will be at higher risk of breast cancer. That has nothing to do with their 'biology' (well, no more so than any other man) and everything to do with the fact that they are taking artifical oestrogen.

Of course it’s biology. Developing breast tissue and taking estrogen is related to a biological aspect of sex. Men do not have increased breast tissue unless they develop it pathologically ie gynecomastia. That isn’t the same as what trans women are doing as a therapeutic intervention. Other aspects of the body including the brain also respond differently to estrogen compared to testosterone.

I think trans people do change aspects of their biological sex. Sex isn’t just chromosomes.

Ellieboolou33 · 04/01/2022 23:35

Yes, the world is / has gone mad.

Born with a vagina = women
Born with penis = man

Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 23:37

Well at least we didn’t get the humpy chart posted yet again.

Cherryblossoms85 · 04/01/2022 23:37

What I think I'm reading here is that medicine dominates medicine. That's just too hilarious. Not sure I can really bring myself to care about what appear to be religious beliefs at this point.

FlyingOink · 04/01/2022 23:37

@HobgoblinGold

I'm very tired. Both in real life and in threads like this. My recent training to date has meant I have had to actively engage with the trans community to better understand their world and the issues they come across. Sadly I do get the general feeling on threads like this that there is anger, hatred, confusion, disbelief, and complete unwillingness to engage in any other debate other than womanhood is only open to AFAB.

I will now bow out this thread because I don't have the emotional energy or headspace to engage any further. The literature is out there if you care to look. I would also encourage you to join trans groups to try and broaden your ideas.

Weak.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 04/01/2022 23:37

An Open Letter To the Guy on Twitter Who Wonders if Biological Sex is Real

Imagine you’re standing at a train station.

Across from you, you see another man step across the tracks. He’s distracted, too busy to take the long way around, too lost in his phone to notice where he’s going. You turn your head the other way and see the train, barreling towards him as he walks into its path.

What do you do? The answer is obvious, hopefully: You scream, you shout, you wave your arms and make a scene. And if he still doesn’t notice, still doesn’t look up from his phone, you jump down and push him off those tracks yourself. Maybe you’re not that brave in reality. But at the very least you hope that’s what you’d do, right?

And why is that? Why would you go through all that effort? Because, consciously or not, you understand Newton’s laws. You understand that force is equal to mass times acceleration, that a very heavy thing moving very fast can destroy a fragile human body in an instant. You do what you can to get that man off the tracks because you know that a life depends on it.

But did you know that Newton’s laws are hardly stable? That they are mere approximations, liable to break down in all sorts of situations? It’s true. Newtonian physics can’t predict the way light bends on its way through the solar system, or how an electron might spin around an atom’s core. Even something as mundane as your cellphone relies on a far more sophisticated model. While those simple equations you learned in junior high school might get you through the day, the truth is much more complicated.

Now, here’s a question: Knowing that, do you change what you yell to the man on the tracks? After all, “The train is coming towards you!” is technically inaccurate. Einstein showed us that movement is relative; in a sense, it’s just as reasonable to say that the man is hurtling towards a stationary train. You’ve got a few seconds left. Do you take the time to capture the nuance?

Physics may be the least of your problems, by the way. Biology is just as messy. You’re probably worried that the man will end up dead, smashed to pieces or ground into bits. But what does it mean to be alive or dead anyway? Many scientists would tell you that no single criteria exists to distinguish inanimate and animate matter. Some entities, like a virus or a prion, even shatter the binary completely. And if you can’t even explainwhythe man on the tracks is alive, what sense does it make to worry about keeping him that way?

And of course, all of this is beside the point if we don’t know what makes something right or wrong in the first place. Dozens and dozens of complex ethical questions exist without any agreed-upon answer, and the foundations of morality are endlessly debated. Should you do anything to help the man at all? You can imagine situations where inaction is best; perhaps he’s a serial killer, or some other unrepentant monster. Perhapsnomoral truths exist, and your effort to save him is completely irrational. Can you be sure your intervention is truly the right thing to do, if you can’t even define what “right” means in the first place?

This certainly is a complex matter —a complex obligation, a complex process, a complex result. Presumably, you’ll want to make sure your warning is in line with all the latest quantum theory. You’ll want to figure out just what you mean by “life” and “death” too. And it wouldn’t hurt to track down the nearest priest or philosophy professor to elaborate the finer points of ethics. Nuance, accuracy, and a critical eye are important, after all. Shouldn’t we strive to get everything right?

Now, here’s a different thought experiment: Imagine it’s you on the train tracks.

Lately, I’ve seen a lot of debates break out on Twitter over biological sex — what defines it, how it can be measured, whether it exists at all. The men who dominate these debates are often experts in their fields, meaning they use terms like “bimodal distribution” and “nonstandard karyotypes” to make their otherwise mundane points. I think most of these points are foolish, tired rehashings of fallacies first identified by ancient Greeks in the fourth century BCE. They confuse — or, perhaps, intentionally conflate — imprecision with invalidity, social perception with social construction, and binarism with exclusivity. In other words, they trade in the all-too-familiar illogic that festers at the intersection of science and philosophy, where ontological cowardice appears as the highest form of nuance.

But here I go again, right? It’s so easy to get sucked into this debate, to get that hot indignation in your stomach that comes when a foolish claim is so proudly asserted. And I don’t even have skin in the game — binary or not, my sex will still land me squarely in the “paid more, raped less” category. So what’s the point beyond intellectual exercise? It seems more and more obvious to me that even entertaining the debate is a concession, an assent to women’s lives being made the subject of thought experiments and counterfactuals plucked from the air by some post-grad who, coincidentally, has never once worried about pregnancy from rape.

So that’s my quarter-through-the-year resolution: I’m not going to debate with you about the reality of biological sex, for the same reason I wouldn’t stand on the train platform debating the finer points of physics while the man on the tracks gets ground into meat. That might sound a little dramatic, a flourish of rhetoric to cover up a weak rebuttal. But how long have you spent reading up to this point? Five minutes? Ten? Then the world has fifty more mutilated girls than when you started. Were the men who carried out those mutilations confused about what makes a female body? Did they ponder chromosome parings and standard deviations when they chose who to cut? Or is that kind of nuance a luxury set aside just for educated, progressive, worldly men like you?

Isn’t it odd that sex was never so complicated before? There was nothing ethereal about our biology when it came to allocating the right to vote, or own property, or walk down the street at night without fear. We knew perfectly well what made someone female when that female-ness guaranteed a life of subservience and pain. Only when women began to say no did their bodies become a concept. So many feminists have made this point, over and over again. I see them say it. I know you read it. Did you listen? If not, why? And why do you always respond when I say it? It seems you do know who has a female body, when it comes to decide which perspective is ignored.

Sex is such a mystery to you when women want shelters for themselves, meetings for themselves, words for themselves. Pardon me for asking, but is it equally mysterious when you log off Twitter and move over to Pornhub? The true nature of a female body is so complex when you lecture. Does it become simple again when you masturbate? Who does the laundry in your house? Were you somehow able to navigate an inchoate soup of X’s and Y’s to saddle your girlfriend with the dishes? Give yourself some credit — I think you know perfectly well what a female body is. But in case you don’t, here’s a hint:

It’s the only type of body that gets you thrown on the funeral pyre when the husband dies. It’s the only type of body that gets your feet bound and your breasts ironed. It’s the only type made pregnant through rape and burned with acid, the only type expected to sit quietly and listen while we redefine it away, the only type men have spent millennia criticizing and critiquing and buying and selling until the moment we decided we couldn’t figure out what the fuck it even means.

You know what a female body is, dude? It’s the only type of body that makes men like you ask such stupid questions. So please, stop. This is an emergency. This is three and a half billion human beings tied to the tracks, and you’re riding on the train. Your insistence on nuance, your fetish for accuracy, your smug deconstruction of common sense — it doesn’t make you thoughtful. It doesn’t make you wise. It doesn’t make you progressive. It makes you an asshole. It makes you worse than a bystander. A bystander does nothing. He watches from afar. You step into the fray just to prod the victim. I’m not going to step in too, laying out my rebuttal over the screams. It’s just not worth it.

Here’s my resolution: As long as pimps, priests, and politicians know what a female body is, I do too. The moment they’re confused — the moment they hesitate, the moment they qualify, the moment they adopt the restraint and caution you demand from the targets of their abuse— then I’ll happily open myself up to ambiguity. Until then, I beg you. Reserve your philosopher’s curiosity, your scientific rigor, for the ten thousand other questions that don’t make a thought experiment out of an atrocity. What marks the division between knowledge and belief? How did life develop from non-life? At what point does a man losing his hair become bald and not merely thinning? Go tweet at Rogaine and get their thoughts on that conundrum. Leave rape crisis centers alone.

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Whatsnewpussyhat · 04/01/2022 23:37

'Gender' is a bunch of outdated, bullshit sex role stereotypes that devout genderists must now enforce in order to keep up the pretence that changing appearance or behaviour somehow changes their sex.

Self expression, clothes etc is simply personality and preference.

Sex is binary and immutable.

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