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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

999 replies

daisiesonmydress · 03/01/2022 12:05

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

OP posts:
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13
Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 22:58

Or is it this gem.

blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

Because we all have debunked it before too. But happy to do so again just for you hobgoblin.

RepentMotherfucker · 04/01/2022 22:59

@Fieldofgreycorn

The cross sex hormones taken by transwomen will increase that risk. It's got nothing to do with them being somehow more female.

But having breasts, estrogen, an increased risk of breast cancer and a need for breast screening is something trans women have in common with other women, not men. It is because an aspect of their biology relating to sex has been changed.

'Other' women? Grin

I'm sure there are lots of things that happen to men that also happen to women. Possibly even more so when those men are dicking around with their hormones. Doesn't make them women.

FlyingOink · 04/01/2022 22:59

@Fieldofgreycorn

The cross sex hormones taken by transwomen will increase that risk. It's got nothing to do with them being somehow more female.

But having breasts, estrogen, an increased risk of breast cancer and a need for breast screening is something trans women have in common with other women, not men. It is because an aspect of their biology relating to sex has been changed.

You mean with women, not other men. Transwomen are a subset of men.
ArabellaScott · 04/01/2022 23:00

It is not my responsibility to educate you. Only you can do that.

Are you telling me to go and read the Endocrine Society's statement on the dimorphic nature sex for the four thousand billionth time? Because I don't think it has changed since the last time.

Anyway, can you please tell the trans rights person who was here earlier that you are not a collectively hallucinated strawperson and you genuinely belief biological sex is 'complicated ' pls because they thought we were somehow conjuring up people out if the aether.

FlyingOink · 04/01/2022 23:01

So Hobgoblin thinks that all males who cross dress, transvestites, men with AGP etc who all now apparently come under the same trans umbrella as transexuals who have dysphoria, are somehow genetically not the same as other men?

It's quite an astounding claim.

UltraVividLament · 04/01/2022 23:01

@Fieldofgreycorn

The cross sex hormones taken by transwomen will increase that risk. It's got nothing to do with them being somehow more female.

But having breasts, estrogen, an increased risk of breast cancer and a need for breast screening is something trans women have in common with other women, not men. It is because an aspect of their biology relating to sex has been changed.

Some transwomen. Not all, possibly not even a majority, it depends on the extent of their transition. Men and women have breast tissue. Male people who are taking oestrogen or have high levels of oestrogen due to illness/disease may need to be screened for breast cancer. That's not a shared experience with women who as a norm have a higher risk of breast cancer, it's a shared experience with other male people with high oestrogen.
Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 23:02

It is a sad fact that femisnist groups generally have a mistrust, and in some cases, hatred for transwomen.

Love to see the evidence of that whopper right there..

Back that up with evidence please. Because it is tired old trope.

It is a sad fact that femisnist groups generally have a mistrust, and in some cases, hatred for ‘poorly constructed arguments and misinterpreted evidence or evidence with poor methodology’.

There. Fixed it for you.

titchy · 04/01/2022 23:04

@Fieldofgreycorn

The cross sex hormones taken by transwomen will increase that risk. It's got nothing to do with them being somehow more female.

But having breasts, estrogen, an increased risk of breast cancer and a need for breast screening is something trans women have in common with other women, not men. It is because an aspect of their biology relating to sex has been changed.

Buddy I get tennis elbow. My biology gives me something in common with Andy Murray. Doesn't make me a tennis pro Hmm
FlyingOink · 04/01/2022 23:04

Back that up with evidence please.

You'll just get told it's "freely available"...

Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 23:06

Kind of less entertaining than silica-human hybrids, I must say.

FlyingOink · 04/01/2022 23:08

@FlyingOink

So Hobgoblin thinks that all males who cross dress, transvestites, men with AGP etc who all now apparently come under the same trans umbrella as transexuals who have dysphoria, are somehow genetically not the same as other men?

It's quite an astounding claim.

I realise I'm quoting myself but can you imagine the possible implications if this was true? We already have millions of missing girls across the world because of sex selective abortion. If they could do a genetic test that would show your unborn son wasn't going to be manly enough, what do you think would happen then?

At least the nonsensical brain scans could only have been done on adults.

Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 23:09

I guess Hob was a plopper then.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 04/01/2022 23:09

@HobgoblinGold

Sex is not binary. Genetics, neurobiology, and hormones all play a role. A persons genitalia can vary throughout life depending on all the aforementioned (and more). This can me made more complex when there are differences between an individuals sexual characteristics versus what they feel inside. additionally, ascribing someones gender by simply what they have between there legs is reductionist and demonstrates complete limitation on the complexity of sex and gender. Transgender people are real and it is time we acknowledge this.. Defining or preventing someone from assigning there own sex identity based on misunderstood or defragemented scientific and dehumanizing
Sex is binary and it is not our job to educate you about the basic facts of life. Kathleen Stock, however, has done a great job. Why not read her book, educate yourself and then, if you have any sensible argument (not just toy throwing) to suggest otherwise, I think we would be interested to hear it.

There is no evidence of any relationship between what is between someone's legs and how they feel - that's exactly the point. If you feel that you need to change your body to change your identity, then you are the one suggesting a relationship between one and the other, not anyone else.

If gender is a polite work for sex, then you prescribe nothing. If gender is a way of drawing attention to the various societal expectations which are loaded differently onto men and women, then it is much more helpful to challenge such expectations rather than entrench them for future generations by saying that you don't identify with the expectations most loaded onto your sex and therefore you must be the other sex. If gender is a matter of identity then there are as many gender identities as there are people on the planet. In the absence of any convincing evidence of some commonality in identity between people with male and people with female bodies, it would be completely inappropriate to assume any commonality of the the which would be needed to state that there is such thing as a 'male identity' and a 'female identity'.

No-one is arguing that trans people are not real - what a silly statement. Religious people are clearly real, I just don't believe in their religion. No sensible person would suggest that means I don't believe Christian/ Muslim etc. people are real. Women are real too you know?

Sex is not an identity, it is a fact. Assign your own identity to your hearts content but you need to understand that some things are actually just objective fact.

What is actually dehumanising is systematically attacking the language which is needed to discuss the vulnerabilities of women and the increased vulnerability related to facts such as the medical establishment failing to understand that women's bodies are not just small male bodies. We know these things btw because of science. Suggesting these things aren't true/ don't matter or that they apply as much to people born male is truly horrid tbh and suggests a complete denial of male privilege.

HobgoblinGold · 04/01/2022 23:10

To illustrate the complexity of sex and gender. This is just one article. If you do have access to scientific journals, please look instead of patting each other on the back on mumsnet

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm

Omicrone · 04/01/2022 23:11

But having breasts, estrogen, an increased risk of breast cancer and a need for breast screening is something trans women have in common with other women, not men. It is because an aspect of their biology relating to sex has been changed.

Men can get breast cancer, almost always oestrogen receptive.

It makes sense then, that men who take artifical oestrogen will be at higher risk of breast cancer. That has nothing to do with their 'biology' (well, no more so than any other man) and everything to do with the fact that they are taking artifical oestrogen.

HobgoblinGold · 04/01/2022 23:11

@FlyingOink

It is.

safariboot · 04/01/2022 23:12

I remember when there wasn't all this "gender" stuff and we called a sex change a sex change and that was not at all debated or controversial.

Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 23:12

Maybe this Twitter thread about the humpy chart is relevant.

twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1478353207407562755?s=21

Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 23:16

[quote HobgoblinGold]To illustrate the complexity of sex and gender. This is just one article. If you do have access to scientific journals, please look instead of patting each other on the back on mumsnet

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm[/quote]
And why is this not used reliably to diagnose gender dysphoria?

Because…. Why?

HobgoblinGold · 04/01/2022 23:17

The OP title is simplistic and depicts a binary. One's biology can change as no one starts of as just one or the other. Everyone is somehow through an emeshment of genetics, neurobiology, hormones, society, culture, home life, influenced to become there own type of sex. To simply denote someone's sex on the presence or absence of gentilaia alone is too simple.

Omicrone · 04/01/2022 23:18

[quote HobgoblinGold]To illustrate the complexity of sex and gender. This is just one article. If you do have access to scientific journals, please look instead of patting each other on the back on mumsnet

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm[/quote]
What if someone claims to be transgender and they have a genetic test and it reveals that their brain did indeed get 'masculinised' and they are just a boring old 'cis' person after all?

HobgoblinGold · 04/01/2022 23:19

@Helleofabore because we are only just started to understand the complexities of sex and gender. That and the massive transphobia and misunderstanding and domination of the biomedical model in medicine.

ArabellaScott · 04/01/2022 23:19

Yay, a link! Thanks, Hobgoblin.

'"Once someone has a male or female brain, they have it and you are not going to change it'

Crikey.

So you're saying that biology can change but not brain sex?

foxgoosefinch · 04/01/2022 23:20

[quote HobgoblinGold]To illustrate the complexity of sex and gender. This is just one article. If you do have access to scientific journals, please look instead of patting each other on the back on mumsnet

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm[/quote]
Ah, with these posters we always get a bit of patronising - what silly mummies! Some of us are neuroscientists, doctors and academics, you know.

You’re missing the fact that all this shows - as with chromosomal DSDs - is that there is a lot of continuous variation within two non-continuous sex categories. This paper isn’t evidence of any third sex nor any middle ground between the two sexes - all it shows is that some people have physiological traits and hormone receptors that are also found concentrated in the other sex (but not necessarily limited to the other sex). But you’d expect that in any broad population. There is huge variation within each sex, but that does not mean sex as a category is variable. Remember that something can be not a simple binary, but that does not mean that it is therefore a spectrum.

HobgoblinGold · 04/01/2022 23:20

@Omicrone

To define someone's sex and/or gender based on a genetic test alone would be reductionist and unscientific. Just like to do exactly the same by looking at whether someone has a penis or a vulva.