If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

[quote HobgoblinGold]@titchy

You can look at this up yourself. It's freely available. [/quote]
No you show me. I don't believe you - no one does. It's up to you to prove us wrong not the other way round. Otherwise we'll just conclude that your spouting bollocks. Which you wouldn't want would you?

@RepentMotherfucker

Sex is not binary. Again the research is freely available.

Sex is not binary.

Some people really don't seem to understand what sex fundamentally is, it seems.

[quote HobgoblinGold]@titchy

You can look at this up yourself. It's freely available. [/quote]
Oh look. Another poster making bold assertions without any evidence to back it up.

The onus is on you @HobgoblinGold to provide your sources. If you can't or won't, then the inevitable conclusion is that you are chatting total bs.

[quote HobgoblinGold]@titchy

You can look at this up yourself. It's freely available. [/quote]
In other words, there’s no such research.
HTH

[quote HobgoblinGold]@RepentMotherfucker

Sex is not binary. Again the research is freely available.[/quote]
It totally is. I know. I made a baby with my husband. Binarily.

Sorry *you're not your

This is incorrect. Research has demonstrated differences in genetics between men and transwomen (amab) alongside lots of other differences. Bearing in mind these are just the differences that scientists know to look for.

Ooooooh, has it really?

Can you provide your sources for this claim? Otherwise I am going to have to assume you are talking utter bollocks I'm afraid.

[quote HobgoblinGold]@titchy

You can look at this up yourself. It's freely available. [/quote]
I already posted something contrary to your claim, and as I don't tell people to search for evidence to corroborate my claims, here it is again.

Initially the approach with [gender dysphoria] was similar to that for disorder of sex development, with a karyotype being routinely requested. An audit of UK clinics from 2013 - 2015 (Table 1) revealed no differences from cytogenetic surveys of the UK newborn population andelsewhere.Therefore, routine karyotyping of a child or adolescent with GD is not required unless any specific clinical features determine this to be necessary.

www.adc.bmj.com/content/103/7/631

If you follow the link, you will see that they found the rate of DSDs/CCSDs for patients being assessed for gender dysphoria was the same as the rate for the wider populations.

Are we going to get the humpy graph with pretty pink and blue colours posted too?

And the description of ‘bimodal’ distribution of sex characteristics??

If you post that, please also post

• what exactly is the x axis measuring and the y axis measuring?
• who is the arbiter of people to allocate them as being more or less female/ male?

• what is the sex of the group in the very centre of the chart?

If you post it, please have these answers too. Never once has anyone been able to answer them. And we all know that any valid chart should be completely able to be explained as to what it measures and how… otherwise it is a picture identifying as a graph.

@titchy

The thing is it's not my responsibility to do all the work for you. I fear that even if I were to lovingly have al the thousands of articles to hand you still wouldn't believe it. It is a sad fact that femisnist groups generally have a mistrust, and in some cases, hatred for transwomen.

It is not my responsibility to educate you. Only you can do that.

@HobgoblinGold could your next response includes the word 'haters'? Pretty please - almost got a full card here!

[quote HobgoblinGold]@titchy

The thing is it's not my responsibility to do all the work for you. I fear that even if I were to lovingly have al the thousands of articles to hand you still wouldn't believe it. It is a sad fact that femisnist groups generally have a mistrust, and in some cases, hatred for transwomen.

It is not my responsibility to educate you. Only you can do that.[/quote]
All the lols! Come on - we've provided links to evidence. Only fair you should do the same. You won't though, because you can't....

[quote UltraVividLament]@Fieldofgreycorn that's because men do have some breast tissue, indeed rarely men do get breast cancer. The cross sex hormones taken by transwomen will increase that risk. It's got nothing to do with them being somehow more female.[/quote]
Yes, and further more, the vast majority of breast cancers in males are oestrogen receptive. Triple negative breast cancer in males is vanishingly rare.

So it would make sense that males who are taking artifical oestrogen would need to be extra aware of breast cancer.

@HobgoblinGold look - @PurgatoryOfPotholes has just given you a wonderful example of how to back up your assertions. It's not time consuming nor do you have to post many links. Just one would be a start, perhaps the one that you feel best supports what you are saying.

It's a grown up way to debate and share views. Rather than jump in making outlandish claims and then demanding that people who disagree with you (with valid arguments and relevant evidence) "educate themselves".

Oh noes…. We have to look it all up ourselves, so what …. no humpy graph and no explanation for the totally bonkers points people try to make with it?

I must say, at least Empress brought in silicon - human hybrids as a future scientific development. Much more entertaining.

[quote HobgoblinGold]@titchy

The thing is it's not my responsibility to do all the work for you. I fear that even if I were to lovingly have al the thousands of articles to hand you still wouldn't believe it. It is a sad fact that femisnist groups generally have a mistrust, and in some cases, hatred for transwomen.

It is not my responsibility to educate you. Only you can do that.[/quote]
Cool story bro.

I have a child asleep upstairs who we made with our binary bodies. She's evidence, you are evidence, I am evidence, every one of the 8 billion people on earth is evidence of the binary nature of sex.

Where's your fucking evidence? You have no evidence. Because it's not fucking true.

It is not my responsibility to educate you. Only you can do that

You just don’t have the information

If you had the information you’d deffo be ‘educating’ us

[quote HobgoblinGold]@titchy

The thing is it's not my responsibility to do all the work for you. I fear that even if I were to lovingly have al the thousands of articles to hand you still wouldn't believe it. It is a sad fact that femisnist groups generally have a mistrust, and in some cases, hatred for transwomen.

It is not my responsibility to educate you. Only you can do that.[/quote]
You understand that you are on MN FWR right? We LOVE reviewing evidence!!!

Don’t be worried, if the research you post is peer reviewed, robust and repeatable then what is your fear?

Or is it a blog post that has fed many ‘expert’ opinions but not one bit of peer reviewed research that has withstood analysis and interrogation.

@Helleofabore

Oh noes…. We have to look it all up ourselves, so what …. no humpy graph and no explanation for the totally bonkers points people try to make with it?

I must say, at least Empress brought in silicon - human hybrids as a future scientific development. Much more entertaining.

I enjoyed that. Got me remembering the silicone-based species the Ogri in the Doctor Who story Stones of Blood. This is back when Romana was the Doctor's companion.

Ok …. Is it this one?

www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

Because the author has clarified that she meant their is many variations within each sex class, not that there is more than two sexes.

I can find Claire Ainsworth’s tweet clarifying this if you like.

Another poster on another thread provided evidence

It was from a fake Mr Blobby and I’m not 100 percent sure what it was evidence of…but at least that poster made an effort

The cross sex hormones taken by transwomen will increase that risk. It's got nothing to do with them being somehow more female.

But having breasts, estrogen, an increased risk of breast cancer and a need for breast screening is something trans women have in common with other women, not men. It is because an aspect of their biology relating to sex has been changed.

I loved Romana!!! And the stones of blood freaked me out as a kid. Bit like weeping angels before they became so over used.

So Hobgoblin thinks that all males who cross dress, transvestites, men with AGP etc who all now apparently come under the same trans umbrella as transexuals who have dysphoria, are somehow genetically not the same as other men?

Humans can't change sex. Never. Nope. Regardless of any word salad you spout.
Not taking drugs, not cutting bits off or adding bits on. No jedi mind tricks.

We can acknowledge some people need to alter their appearance or change their name in order to be comfortable with themselves, without having to pretend they have actually changed sex, and surely it would be better for their mental health to make peace with that themselves?