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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

999 replies

daisiesonmydress · 03/01/2022 12:05

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

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strawberry2017 · 04/01/2022 20:19

I get really confused with the correct terminology.

Sex can't be changed and is biologically a fact.
Male or female.

There are many genders and people can chose to live as which one they identify as

Have I understood it correctly?

Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 20:20

ah, so you ask me to summarise the various ethical discussions and post to MN for you to get a feel whether MtF might ever be approved for UTx surgeries and infertility treatments. And when I simply refuse to educate you, you dismiss all such ethical discussions to date as “meaningless” So you are not truly interested in the past and current bioethics discussions on this subject, are you?

Right. I have ‘googled’. I have failed to find any of these ‘ethics discussions’ at any level with world human rights governing bodies.

Lots of discussion by niche teams of scientists hypothetically discussing it.

Some even acknowledge that it will be effectively like growing a human in a bag due to degree of lack of supporting structure that could ever be changed in the male body.

Now, some labs may start petitioning to increase the legal limit of 14 days to five weeks, but there is a great deal of debate as to the ethics.

By contrast, no human embryos have been grown outside the womb beyond 14 days (the legal limit in the UK, Israel, China and many other countries), which is of course still at a very early stage of the journey towards becoming a baby. But Jacob Hanna, who led the Israeli project at the Weizmann Institute of Science, told Technology Review that it “sets the stage for other species… I hope that it will allow scientists to grow human embryos until week five.”

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/replotting-the-human-the-thorny-ethics-of-growing-babies-outside-the-womb

So, as I said. These ‘discussions’ are irrelevant to progressing YOUR point of view. The ethics of ‘ectogenesis’ which this then forms part of has been debated since the term ectogenesis came into being around 1924.

But crack on with your bad takes and misinformation. And a poor grasp on female physiology and how pregnancy works.

ArabellaScott · 04/01/2022 20:20

Yep, that's correct, strawberry.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 04/01/2022 20:20

No dissing David Attenborough's Life in the Underground please. It was brilliant. I stayed home and took control of the flat telly to watch that, and then, at the crucial moment, my flatmate's boyfriend knocked on the door. And I got up and answered the door! Whhhhhy did I do that? Angry

ArabellaScott · 04/01/2022 20:21

like growing a human in a bag

Envy (not envy)

HobgoblinGold · 04/01/2022 20:22

@daisiesonmydress

'Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?'

Biologically incorrect. There are many genotypical and phenotypical variations.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 04/01/2022 20:25

@ArabellaScott

Okay. I will keep them here in case anyone else wants to see the graceful, balletic and complicated courtship dance of the leopard slugs.
Wait you actually have them where you are 😳
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 04/01/2022 20:27

[quote HobgoblinGold]@daisiesonmydress

'Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?'

Biologically incorrect. There are many genotypical and phenotypical variations.
[/quote]
Yes. These are what you might call subsets of being male, or female.

And arguing over whether some people are male or female because of their congenital disorders of sexual development has nothing to do with healthy, fertile male humans changing sex, has it?

Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 20:30

To clarify, debate about growing a human in a bag [insert other animal of choice here as well] has been going 100 years with no resolution in sight.

But apparently, because it will be effectively a bag [insert human womb unsupported by the relevant body parts in a female to support this womb so needs constant artificial chemical support, manipulation and supplements] inside a male (and biologically modified not a robot like uterus, because the term ‘biological’ has been extended to mean has only biological modifications), it will quickly be approved….

Are you all seeing it?

strawberry2017 · 04/01/2022 20:31

Thank you @ArabellaScott

Another question!
At work I've noticed people putting pronouns after their names.

I would think that only the people who live as a different gender would need to do this to ensure they are addressed the way they would prefer.
So people who live as the gender they were born with? Do this in support of trans people

Is that correct?

Omicrone · 04/01/2022 20:35

The whole 'have hormonally changed sex' is bullshit as well.

What does Shon Faye think would happen to their body if they stopped taking oestrogen?

ArabellaScott · 04/01/2022 20:46

@strawberry2017

Thank you *@ArabellaScott*

Another question!
At work I've noticed people putting pronouns after their names.

I would think that only the people who live as a different gender would need to do this to ensure they are addressed the way they would prefer.
So people who live as the gender they were born with? Do this in support of trans people

Is that correct?

Some people think that it's supportive of trans people, but I've heard trans people say it's the opposite of helpful.

The Yogyakarta principles are sometimes quoted on this. Principle 6 says nobody should be compelled to disclose or share their gender identity.

'Ensure the right of all persons ordinarily to choose when, to whom and how to disclose information pertaining to their sexual orientation or gender identity, and protect all persons from arbitrary or unwanted disclosure, or threat of disclosure of such information by others.'

yogyakartaprinciples.org/principle-6/

simmonslulu · 04/01/2022 21:15

@ChloeCrocodile

Biologically, we can give a male the biological secondary sex characteristics of a female.

No we cannot. Secondary sex characteristics of adult human females cannot be produced in male bodies. We can cosmetically alter the appearance of a male body to better approximate a female body, but we cannot replicate the functions and properties of a vagina.

That is so true a trans vagina does not behave like a real one, I know because I have experience of both.
Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 21:22

simmonslulu

Can I ask whether you were told your neo vagina 'was a vagina'? As Empress has indicated that replica body parts 'are' what their labels suggest.

I have no idea if Empress is trans, but they certainly seem to be speaking with authority for the trans community.

HobgoblinGold · 04/01/2022 21:31

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Without doing a sex genetic screen you would never know someone's XY make up. Therefore you can never assign someone as being ‘male’ just because ‘he’ has a penis and a pair of testicles. Sex is so much more complicated that that.

Doubletoilandtrouble · 04/01/2022 21:35

you can never assign someone as male just because “he” has a penis and a pair of testicles

I wonder on what percentage of cases you would be wrong if you did just that? After a quick look at said genitalia?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 04/01/2022 21:35

‘Sex is so much more complicated’

House!!!!

my bingo card is now complete Grin

I do not know how people with disorders of sexual Development havent burned down the Internet yet

Sophoclesthefox · 04/01/2022 21:37

[quote HobgoblinGold]@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Without doing a sex genetic screen you would never know someone's XY make up. Therefore you can never assign someone as being ‘male’ just because ‘he’ has a penis and a pair of testicles. Sex is so much more complicated that that.[/quote]
You must spend such a lot of your life being terribly confused if you truly believe that. How exhausting it sounds.

Generally, in 99%+ of all males, including those who do not identify as male, having a penis and testicles will correlate with XY chromosomes, and we can safely assume that person is male.

In the other sub 1%, there may be a variation of sex development, previously known as intersex. But that has nothing to do with gender identity.

UltraVividLament · 04/01/2022 21:40

@HobgoblinGold are you telling me that my partner who is the father of my two (male) children cannot possibly be definitively referred to as male? Just because he hasn't had his sex chromosomes checked? And neither can said two male children be definitively referred to as male, on the basis of their observed genitalia at birth? (Or in fact as observed at their 20 week scans in both cases)?

Weird how the midwives, consultants, health visitors, GPs or any other health care specialist has mentioned that to me.

titchy · 04/01/2022 21:41

[quote HobgoblinGold]@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Without doing a sex genetic screen you would never know someone's XY make up. Therefore you can never assign someone as being ‘male’ just because ‘he’ has a penis and a pair of testicles. Sex is so much more complicated that that.[/quote]
No you're absolutely correct. Lots of people with XX chromosomes and no DSD are born with a penis and testicles. All over the place they are. Common as muck.

Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 21:42

Ummmmm!! Testes is a pretty reliable indicator of male. Who has both testes and ovaries? You might want to check your facts there.

Please listen to people who have differences in sex development when they ask not to have their bodies used as ‘gotchas’ by any person.

simmonslulu · 04/01/2022 21:45

@Helleofabore

simmonslulu

Can I ask whether you were told your neo vagina 'was a vagina'? As Empress has indicated that replica body parts 'are' what their labels suggest.

I have no idea if Empress is trans, but they certainly seem to be speaking with authority for the trans community.

I was told that it was a vagina, it looks exactly like one if a little too neat because I have seen a real one. I told the surgeon that it was in fact an 'ersazt' vagina that would allow my male partner to penetrate me and enjoy it and that I would also enjoy and probably but not certainly be able to orgasm. My failure to engage with the 'I am becoming a biological woman' propagated by extreme Trans meant that I had to see a psychiatrist before starting treatment lol.

Make no mistake this whole issue is political and tribal if it was scientific TERFs would win every time.

Artichokeleaves · 04/01/2022 21:49

[quote HobgoblinGold]@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Without doing a sex genetic screen you would never know someone's XY make up. Therefore you can never assign someone as being ‘male’ just because ‘he’ has a penis and a pair of testicles. Sex is so much more complicated that that.[/quote]
No. Really, it's only ever 'complicated' when someone is trying to undo women's rights to the benefit of males.

Helleofabore · 04/01/2022 21:50

That is very concerning that medical staff supposedly acting in your best interests told you it was a ‘vagina’.

Thank you for your answer.

How is a person supposed to remain honest about their bodies if the medical staff are using false terminology like that?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 04/01/2022 21:50

[quote HobgoblinGold]@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Without doing a sex genetic screen you would never know someone's XY make up. Therefore you can never assign someone as being ‘male’ just because ‘he’ has a penis and a pair of testicles. Sex is so much more complicated that that.[/quote]
Really.

Then please explain to me how doctors make referrals to gender identity clinics for gender dysphoria.

If you can't know that someone is male from their penis and testicles, how can you decide that they're not going to develop breasts without oestrogen supplementation?

Surely you can't know that a vagina won't suddenly blossom at any moment?