If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

Oh make no mistake, abitof, I am absolutely not defending that study. Quite the opposite. It’s a dogs breakfast.

I’m just amused that we are being told opposing facts are Definitely Absolutely All True, despite their being contradictory.

It is fun arguing that 'genetically male' is so very different from 'biologically' male.

It is quite like arguing that a male would still be 'biologically male', if another mammal's body part would be implanted. Because, it is after all, still 'biological' matter.

Or if a plant was 'implanted' to grow in the human body.... that human would still be 'biological'. Plants come under 'biological' labelling too.

not just your cherry-picked commenters

Oi, who’s been picking the TRA representatives for the threads on this board? I have some complaints.

(Although not about this thread. Whoever picked Empress, it was a stroke of comedy genius. )

I have never seen it argued outside of this group or fringe groups.

We have had quite a number of posters come onto MN and argue that uterus transplant are going to happen and happen soon too.

I have never once seen an MN regular argue this. But also, you are uninformed. It is brought up maybe once every month or so by male transitioners. Usually as a 'gotcha'. Inevitably the threads get deleted.

You seem keen to spread your own misinformation on this thread.

Well @Sophoclesthefox me and the other poster here are uh, how we say, different people, and have different opinions! I do not agree with Empress. So, if you find what’s being said to be contradictory, well. Yes. We disagree.

Could someone more educated than me tell me whether adult human males and adult human females produce the same type of haemoglobin? I'm wondering about oxygen exchange between the bloodstream of the human fetus (getal haemoglobin) and the bloodstream of an adult male.

Also, aren't women's pelvises specifically 'designed' to allow a foetus to grow, and allow all the other organs to continue to function as well? Isn't there a big risk that a foetuses development, or the function of other organs, would be significantly impaired in a male body?

Yep, and women's organs helpfully move to allow the foetus to grow, how are they going to ensure that men's do? Plus the fact that men's organs are bigger and therefore take up more space are they going to swop those organs for the smaller female versions?

Jeez I've never read such an unmitigated load of tripe as that that is being posted by Empress.

However the belief that one “can” change their chromosomes from xy to xx, or obtain the ability to give birth, is not held at all.

abitofadvice arrived on this thread specifically to make that point. They’re quite as funny as Empress in their own way.

But changing XY to XX is about the only thing in the far future...as in 50+ years away

What about human flying? Is this 50 years in the future or do you think it's more like 75? I'd really love to soar over my streets and not worry about parking and I think this would help with traffic congestion. I imagine using wings of dead donor eagles and maybe some prosthetics. No more waiting at the airport, no canceled flights, no gas-guzzling planes. We might have to account for rain and snow but surely there will be a market for all-weather flying clothes.

@Helleofabore yes i’m sure this board attracts a lot of people who want to have an argument, along with a lot of trolls. It is an anonymous message board after all. However it’s not representative of trans women. I am sure that if you went to a group of trans women irl and you asked them if they could change their chromosomes or have the same reproductive function that the majority of cis women do, they would say no.

@VestofAbsurdity

Also, aren't women's pelvises specifically 'designed' to allow a foetus to grow, and allow all the other organs to continue to function as well? Isn't there a big risk that a foetuses development, or the function of other organs, would be significantly impaired in a male body?

Yep, and women's organs helpfully move to allow the foetus to grow, how are they going to ensure that men's do? Plus the fact that men's organs are bigger and therefore take up more space are they going to swop those organs for the smaller female versions?

Jeez I've never read such an unmitigated load of tripe as that that is being posted by Empress.

Brain transplants. Sid's brain transplanted into Nancy's body, et voila , the perfick wumban

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Could someone more educated than me tell me whether adult human males and adult human females produce the same type of haemoglobin? I'm wondering about oxygen exchange between the bloodstream of the human fetus (getal haemoglobin) and the bloodstream of an adult male.

Pretty sure there's just one sort of haemoglobin. (Also, re blood cells lack a nucleus so I suppose they're about the only unsexed cells we have)

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Could someone more educated than me tell me whether adult human males and adult human females produce the same type of haemoglobin? I'm wondering about oxygen exchange between the bloodstream of the human fetus (getal haemoglobin) and the bloodstream of an adult male.

I don't know but isn't this why giving males blood from females who have been pregnant is dangerous for the males receiving it.

Perhaps Empress will be back and tell us that they will remove all the blood from the male and exchange it for female blood, that should sort it out, or not.

Brain transplants
nods wisely

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Could someone more educated than me tell me whether adult human males and adult human females produce the same type of haemoglobin? I'm wondering about oxygen exchange between the bloodstream of the human fetus (getal haemoglobin) and the bloodstream of an adult male.

I have that in the Usborne Big Book of Science! It's under here, somewhere ...

Do neo cervixes dilate on cue?

Lets be honest here, we're talking about could a body, with a hell of a lot of drugs, surgery, transplantation, medical support and intervention be forced to do something it was never designed to do....

.... and which actually involves another human?

Female people are barely allowed paracetamol in case of harming the child. Ethics? And what sort of success rate? What's it going to cost in terms of time, input, drugs, surgery? Who's going to pay that? And who benefits?

Not found anything about men producing a different type, so we just need to worry about creating an adequate blood supply to the uterus to support a placenta and a fetus. Just.

ysjournal.com/the-types-of-haemoglobin-throughout-human-life/

@HaroldMeeker

Brain transplants nods wisely

A lady brain in a lady body?!

By Jove you've cracked it

I didn't know about the sex difference in haemoglobin levels:

www.bmj.com/content/325/7356/137.full

'of all the primates, only in humans do females have lower blood haemoglobin concentrations than males.1 The usual explanation, of the effect of androgens on erythropoiesis, does not explain the difference between species.2 The explanation of Rushton et al of iron deficiency among females, does not withstand scrutiny.1'

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24491804/

'Men and women have different mean haemoglobin levels in health in venous blood - women have mean levels approximately 12% lower than men. A similar sex-related difference in haemoglobin levels in adult animals is found in many species of mammals, birds and reptiles, indicating that it is an important physiological phenomenon. It is probably a direct effect of sex hormones, both oestrogen and androgens, on erythropoiesis. However, since there is no difference in erythropoietin levels between the sexes, this effect most likely takes place in the kidney, rather than in the bone marrow. '

Can't find anything on sex differences between the haemoglobin, but that was an interesting wee foray, anyway!

Female people are barely allowed paracetamol in case of harming the child. Ethics? And what sort of success rate? What's it going to cost in terms of time, input, drugs, surgery? Who's going to pay that? And who benefits?

Brie?
Soft serve ice cream?
Forget it, it's too risky for a developing foetus.

The cocktail of drugs that would be required to gestate a foetus in a male body?
Go for it!!!

[quote abitofadvice1234]@Helleofabore yes i’m sure this board attracts a lot of people who want to have an argument, along with a lot of trolls. It is an anonymous message board after all. However it’s not representative of trans women. I am sure that if you went to a group of trans women irl and you asked them if they could change their chromosomes or have the same reproductive function that the majority of cis women do, they would say no.[/quote]
We've had a fair few transwomen visitors here in the past who have said exactly that, they covet female biological functions, they detest that we have them and they don't. In fact we were roundly told off by one 'friend' of a TW for being so unkind as to discuss our biological functions on a forum primarily for women the majority of whom are mothers, (called Mumsnet fgs), and the impact they have on us because said TW would do anything to be able to have periods and experience the pain of them and by discussing them we were being mean and upsetting the TW. May not be representative of the TW you know but it is the view of some TW and they do say it.

I love this

I’m not saying you can be born biologically a male and then die biologically a female. Good
I am saying it is currently possible to be born biologically male and die biologically not male. But it isn't. There is no third category. There is just male and female.

And I am saying, within our lifetime most probably can be said, you would be born genetically a male and die still genetically a male. No "most probably". A male is born male, lives life, dies male. It is impossible to change sex.

Again, you can be not male and not female. No, you can't.

It’s not a biological binary when you have the technology we have.
It absolutely is a biological binary. There are two sexes, there is no third category.

The MtF transwomen doesn’t have to be fully female to be not male. Male and female aren't measured in degrees, there is no third category.

[quote abitofadvice1234]@Helleofabore yes i’m sure this board attracts a lot of people who want to have an argument, along with a lot of trolls. It is an anonymous message board after all. However it’s not representative of trans women. I am sure that if you went to a group of trans women irl and you asked them if they could change their chromosomes or have the same reproductive function that the majority of cis women do, they would say no.[/quote]
Sadly, as I mentioned, those transitioned males are not the ones active in setting policy and law them are they?

As I have said to posters who tell us their mates don’t believe extemist views, what are they doing to make sure those supposedly representing them know they are not representing the majority? Even just cancelling their membership to stonewall would send a message.

Are your mates doing anything like that?

@EmpressCixi as Google is my friend, I have managed to find a paper published in May 2021 which is quite clear that there have been no successful attempts at implanting a uterus into a transwoman. In fact the only case they could find was the ill advised and always-doomed attempt in 1931 with Lili Elbe which resulted in death.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2021.1915635

You know, sometimes I hope they really do invest a ton of money into making male pregnancy work. It never will, of course, but investment on that scale could make a massive difference to rates of female infertility and pregnancy complications.

Then I remember that the only part of the puzzle anyone is actually doing any work on is the part that involves harvesting organs from women, and I give up the fantasy that anything the trans movement accomplishes could have positive outcomes for women.