If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

@abitofadvice1234 what is the "gender" of woman? Woman is a sex class, a name for humans who are female and adult.

This being part of the issue, the insistence that "woman" is a gender term not a sex term.

Trans women are people born male who identify their gender, not their sex, as women.

Oh good. There's no need for them to be in female single SEX spaces then. Hurrah.

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

By which time it will be 10 years since the first successful transplant from dead donor to living women... but no offspring yet.

We can wait, we are good at that!

What? The first successful live birth from a uterus donated by a cadaver to a woman was in 2018 in Brazil. It’s not 2008.

If you were to go to a place with a group of trans women and say that one could get a womb transplant or change their chromosomes you would be immediately told otherwise. Probably nicely. But it is not something that is commonly held by trans women.

Mate, there’s someone saying that males can literally become females, eg change their sex right above you on this very thread

Maybe read the thread?

Couldn't have been better timed!

abitofadvice1234

And to that, I am just going to add that I am currently waiting for confirmation on this from one of Stonewall's lawyers on another thread. Because, they said that 'virtually' no other transitioned males believed in the views of Hayton, another transitioned male, who said that males remain males and cannot change sex.

So, I will get back to you on that front once they clarify their post shall I?

No just the 'crazies' on twitter.... but some prominent and published legal entities representing Stonewall.

@UltraVividLament

Was Stalking Cat biologically a cat, given his many body modifications? Was he just genetically human, but to all other purposes feline?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_Cat

At his death, would those doing an autopsy have been excited to discover the first cat/human hybrid?

Trans-species is a completely different scenario. A human cannot (yet) change themselves into a nonhuman. And when we do, we are more likely to go silicon based than carbon based.

I’m not arguing here. Go watch “Gender Critical” by Natalie Wynn. There are even better argued videos out there on the subject , but I’d rather not link smaller creators here, as i’d worry about putting them on the radar of “Gender Critical” people.

The use of 'complicated' is often an obfuscation. People are quite logically going to presume they don't know that much on a subject so defer to someone who claims greater knowledge. Much of our understanding is based on trusting people with greater knowledge, so that's logical.

But one should always check and ask for sources, references, data, etc. Don't ever be afraid to ask questions! If someone discourages questions that's generally an indication that their information is likely to be untrustworthy.

It was donated to a woman then. An adult human female with all the other bits of woman to support a pregnancy.

You can say that your right to believe

That sex is immutable and you will therefore remain the sex you were born (the one observed and recorded at birth, no one gets assigned a sex) throughout your life.
That sex doesn't change
That sex matters

is enshrined in law, the EA2010.

If you are all of the same mind it could be quite fun.

@abitofadvice1234

If you were to go to a place with a group of trans women and say that one could get a womb transplant or change their chromosomes you would be immediately told otherwise. Probably nicely. But it is not something that is commonly held by trans women.

We are not the ones saying that they can.

@abitofadvice1234

So much disinfo here.

Not here to argue, but there are likely people in this thread who are new to all this and a may only see the, uh, “gender critical,” view of this.

The belief that one can change his or her chromosomal sex does not exist in the trans community outside of some crazies on twitter. It’s a straw man made up by conservatives and “Gender Critical” people. Trans women are people born male who identify their gender, not their sex, as women.

If you would like to actually understand these issues from the perspective of a trans woman, not the straw one made up by the “Gender Critical” people on this forum, I would suggest looking at Natalie Wynn’s (channel name Contrapoints) video on the subject.

Great! So sex is a protected characteristic in the EA, and therefore women have a right to certain single sex provision as per the EA and it is therefore not transphobic to say that transwomen should not be included in this because their sex is male.

So it's not transphobic to say that transwomen are not women then? Because women are females? Excellent.

Silicon, eh?

@abitofadvice1234

If you were to go to a place with a group of trans women and say that one could get a womb transplant or change their chromosomes you would be immediately told otherwise. Probably nicely. But it is not something that is commonly held by trans women.

Womb transplants are not publicly available yet, never said they were. But surveys of transwomen indicate that over 70% would like a UTx if it were available.

Change to chromosomes...again never said this was even possible, in fact I said most probably still not be possible (75-95%) within in our lifetimes.

@abitofadvice1234

So much disinfo here.

Not here to argue, but there are likely people in this thread who are new to all this and a may only see the, uh, “gender critical,” view of this.

The belief that one can change his or her chromosomal sex does not exist in the trans community outside of some crazies on twitter. It’s a straw man made up by conservatives and “Gender Critical” people. Trans women are people born male who identify their gender, not their sex, as women.

If you would like to actually understand these issues from the perspective of a trans woman, not the straw one made up by the “Gender Critical” people on this forum, I would suggest looking at Natalie Wynn’s (channel name Contrapoints) video on the subject.

No thank you.

they said that 'virtually' no other transitioned males believed in the views of Hayton, another transitioned male, who said that males remain males and cannot change sex

Indeed they did. So today we have been told by trans people/trans allies that

• pretty much nobody believes that trans people change their sex
• pretty much nobody believes that trans people remain the sex they were born as

Hmmm.

@abitofadvice1234

I’m not arguing here. Go watch “Gender Critical” by Natalie Wynn. There are even better argued videos out there on the subject , but I’d rather not link smaller creators here, as i’d worry about putting them on the radar of “Gender Critical” people.

I've watched some of Natalie Wynn, but the woman-hatred is so strong I find I can't watch for very long. Sorry.

If males can't change sex, then why would they he allowed into spaces and provision that is meant for the female sex? What would how they feel on the inside or how they identify have anything to do with that?

@abitofadvice1234

So much disinfo here.

Not here to argue, but there are likely people in this thread who are new to all this and a may only see the, uh, “gender critical,” view of this.

The belief that one can change his or her chromosomal sex does not exist in the trans community outside of some crazies on twitter. It’s a straw man made up by conservatives and “Gender Critical” people. Trans women are people born male who identify their gender, not their sex, as women.

If you would like to actually understand these issues from the perspective of a trans woman, not the straw one made up by the “Gender Critical” people on this forum, I would suggest looking at Natalie Wynn’s (channel name Contrapoints) video on the subject.

Ooh, the motte-and-bailey technique. Not sure I've seen it in the wild before, so I very much appreciate the opportunity to tick it off in my copy of I-Spy Logical Fallacies and Rhetorical Techniques.

Did Natalie Wynn rush to explain to David Lammy MP, current Shadow Justice Secretary, that transwomen definitely couldn't have ovaries or cervices?

This is what David Lammy said. Do you see any issues here?

It's probably the case that trans women don't have ovaries ... but a cervix, I understand, is something that you can have, following, er ... various procedures and hormone treatment and all the rest of it

I am still waiting for confirmation that my Star Trek dreams will come true. Probably in the next 3 years.

That I can be recreated atom by atom to be modified exactly how I want to be.

Lovely. Not long to wait now.

Womb transplants are not publicly available yet, never said they were. But surveys of transwomen indicate that over 70% would like a UTx if it were available.

Where would a womb go in a male? What would it be connected to? Do you mean literally just a sack that a baby can grow in, which basically could be made of anything, or the entire system which runs throughout the female body which allows a foetus to gestate?

I’m not saying you can be born biologically a male and then die biologically a female. I am saying it is currently possible to be born biologically male and die biologically not male. And I am saying, within our lifetime most probably can be said, you would be born genetically a male and die still genetically a male.

Again, you can be not male and not female. It’s not a biological binary when you have the technology we have. The MtF transwomen doesn’t have to be fully female to be not male.

And I am saying that your posts are nonsensical. Humans are sexually bimodal: male and female. One can alter one's appearance surgically or through cross-sex hormones, but that does not change one's sex as sex in humans is determined at time of conception and is immutable.

And for - what? the thrid time? - can you please provide me with a peer reviewed journal article in which a transwoman has had a cervical and uterine implant, as you claim?

Thank you.

Womb transplants are not publicly available yet, never said they were. But surveys of transwomen indicate that over 70% would like a UTx if it were available.

Link to survey please. You should have it at your fingertips, seeing as you're such an expert. I'd love to see your source.

Go watch “Gender Critical” by Natalie Wynn

Wynn’s videos tend to involve three hours of pouting at the camera with costume changes so I heartily unrecommend this.

I think the video you mentioned is the one that I actually watched all the way through. IIRC it doesn’t even touch on the notion that biological sex can be changed, because it was made a few years ago when everything was slightly less stupid. Why are you recommending it on this thread when it has nothing to do with this thread?

Someone wanting something is not believing they can have something. I don’t know why you’re arguing this. I would believe that, if given the opportunity, most trans women would likely want to be able to have kids in the same way cis women do. However the belief that one “can” change their chromosomes from xy to xx, or obtain the ability to give birth, is not held at all.

Again, watch the video.