If born male you biologically stay male until you die? Yes?

[daisiesonmydress]

Just that really. That's my understanding. No matter how you dress or what surgery you have?

And you can legally say this too?

If we imagine endless financial resources and no ethical restrictions, a man could have very very extensive procedures and treatment to approximate a woman.
However he would still be male.

Men who have smaller frames and who have had facial surgery sometimes look more convincing as transwomen but even then, sometimes candid photos give the game away. I saw pics of a YouTuber that made it very obvious, for example, and life isn't lived through studio lighting and specific camera angles. The male gait is a giveaway. Male head, hand size. Arm length.

At some point a surgeon will offer arm shortening (one already takes chunks of shoulder out to narrow them) but I don't know how they'll shrink a male cranium.

Neovaginas are a terrible argument. They're comparatively rare, they have numerous surgical complications, they don't look like vulvas/vaginas, they can't replicate the function of female genitals, they are prone to infection as are not self cleaning, they require upkeep (literal upkeep) and those made of bowel smell of bowel. They're often lopsided, or the "labia" are in the wrong place, there's no clitoris. And all that is after surgical revisions, wound dehiscence, infections and necrotic tissue, which seem to be part for the course according to those who have had this surgery and are discussing or reviewing it.

Alfonso you will have to wait for it to actually happen before it can be peer reviewed.

And when I simply refuse to educate you

The classic cowardly get out.

If I made a rather extraordinary claim and somone asked me to back it up, I would do so. If I didn't have any evidence, I would tell the person that it's not my job to educate them.

And there we have a classic diversion. Like we are so stupid we need to be reminded to breathe in...

@Gumbomambo

Alfonso you will have to wait for it to actually happen before it can be peer reviewed.

Won't be long though..... three years seems to be appearing on this thread alot at the moment.... so let's say... three years!

@Helleofabore

The fact is it’s still biologically permanently done to a male body such that it is no longer biologically male.

This is philosophical thinking.

A male with all these alterations, remains male. Till they day they die. Just with a multitude of alterations.

Genetically, but not biologically in my opinion. When your structure, your organs, your muscles and bones, your hormones, even your body hair are all altered away from normal Male variation, can’t really say they are still biologically male, only genetically male.

By which time it will be 10 years since the first successful transplant from dead donor to living women... but no offspring yet.

We can wait, we are good at that!

Here you go Cnidaria enthusiasts! Amazing! They can reproduce sexually OR asexually - and some can go BACKWARDS.

Immortal jellyfish:

www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/immortal-jellyfish-secret-to-cheating-death.html

I mean, it's only a matter of time before we can all do the same.

Genetically, but not biologically in my opinion. When your structure, your organs, your muscles and bones, your hormones, even your body hair are all altered away from normal Male variation, can’t really say they are still biologically male, only genetically male.

Again you are using words in your own way.

Genetically, but not biologically in my opinion.

not biologically in my opinion

Well, you know what they say about opinions, everyone has one.

Genetically, but not biologically in my opinion. When your structure, your organs, your muscles and bones, your hormones, even your body hair are all altered away from normal Male variation, can’t really say they are still biologically male, only genetically male^

This is a No True Scotsman fallacy

In my opinion, the moon is made of green cheese and unicorns exist.

I think empresscixi has mistaken the film Junior for a documentary.

As an aside as someone who works in organ donation I can see the use of female cadaveric uteruses being used in mtf uterine transplants causing an absolute shitstorm for organ donation in this country. Why on earth would we dedicate precious resources such as mortuaries, theatres, staff, organisational structures, ever depleted budgets- let alone entirely irreplaceable donor goodwill- to do this?

Was Stalking Cat biologically a cat, given his many body modifications? Was he just genetically human, but to all other purposes feline?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_Cat

At his death, would those doing an autopsy have been excited to discover the first cat/human hybrid?

Genetically, but not biologically in my opinion. When your structure, your organs, your muscles and bones, your hormones, even your body hair are all altered away from normal Male variation, can’t really say they are still biologically male, only genetically male.

What "structure"? Men and women are built differently - just look at the pelvis, lung capacity, heart size, bone density etc. Implanted organs are just that - implanted. Muscles and bones are affected by cross-sex hormone treatment. Body hair is removed by laser.

Surgery doth not a woman create.

Sir Robert Winston, World renowned reproductive and human biology expert says, on national television, that it is impossible to change sex.

But it's definitely some person on an Internet forum whose 'opinion' is to the contrary that we should be listening to!

I can see the use of female cadaveric uteruses being used in mtf uterine transplants causing an absolute shitstorm for organ donation

I think that our edumacated friend even quoted something recommending vaginal transplants from cadavers to MTF patients. Which would be even worse, wouldn’t it? I don’t think you’d have any women left on the donor registry if that became a thing.

So much disinfo here.

Not here to argue, but there are likely people in this thread who are new to all this and a may only see the, uh, “gender critical,” view of this.

The belief that one can change his or her chromosomal sex does not exist in the trans community outside of some crazies on twitter. It’s a straw man made up by conservatives and “Gender Critical” people. Trans women are people born male who identify their gender, not their sex, as women.

If you would like to actually understand these issues from the perspective of a trans woman, not the straw one made up by the “Gender Critical” people on this forum, I would suggest looking at Natalie Wynn’s (channel name Contrapoints) video on the subject.

A man’s heart is, on average, about 60 grams heavier than a woman’s heart.

I guess to truly change sex, you’d also have to transplant a new, sex appropriate heart in, wouldn’t you?

Complicated stuff, biology.

ahhh yes....

Genetically, but not biologically in my opinion. When your structure, your organs, your muscles and bones, your hormones, even your body hair are all altered away from normal Male variation, can’t really say they are still biologically male, only genetically male.

Isn't it wonderful to use the very generic term of 'biological' to mean body parts and then have that refer to 'biological male'.

Well, fuck me. Yes, a male who has alterated their body is still in a 'biological' body. As in, it contains NO mechanical modifications. It is still 'biologically male' though in its definition which would be judged on the hierarchy of being 'genetically' male. Because.... genes are biological too.

Playing around with the meaning of words does not make those words fit any better in reality.

You are still perpetuating misinformation that is harmful for trans people to be receiving as proven science. No amount of changing terminology will change that.

I don't know where you lot get the patience from, I really don't.
Still, it gives the sun a chance to get in and disinfect. Lurkers, I do hope you're paying attention to who provides the evidence and who loftily says it's too complicated to explain (subtext "you're too stupid to understand")

@abitofadvice1234

So much disinfo here.

Not here to argue, but there are likely people in this thread who are new to all this and a may only see the, uh, “gender critical,” view of this.

The belief that one can change his or her chromosomal sex does not exist in the trans community outside of some crazies on twitter. It’s a straw man made up by conservatives and “Gender Critical” people. Trans women are people born male who identify their gender, not their sex, as women.

If you would like to actually understand these issues from the perspective of a trans woman, not the straw one made up by the “Gender Critical” people on this forum, I would suggest looking at Natalie Wynn’s (channel name Contrapoints) video on the subject.

Mate, there’s someone saying that males can literally become females, eg change their sex right above you on this very thread 🤣

Maybe read the thread?

Genetically, but not biologically in my opinion. When your structure, your organs, your muscles and bones, your hormones, even your body hair are all altered away from normal Male variation, can’t really say they are still biologically male, only genetically male.

What the hell is it that you think these cross sex hormones can do?! And the whole point of them is that you have to keep taking them to stop your own biology reverting back to the characteristics of your sex.

@AlfonsoTheGoat

Genetically, but not biologically in my opinion. When your structure, your organs, your muscles and bones, your hormones, even your body hair are all altered away from normal Male variation, can’t really say they are still biologically male, only genetically male.

What "structure"? Men and women are built differently - just look at the pelvis, lung capacity, heart size, bone density etc. Implanted organs are just that - implanted. Muscles and bones are affected by cross-sex hormone treatment. Body hair is removed by laser.

Surgery doth not a woman create.

I’m not saying you can be born biologically a male and then die biologically a female. I am saying it is currently possible to be born biologically male and die biologically not male. And I am saying, within our lifetime most probably can be said, you would be born genetically a male and die still genetically a male.

Again, you can be not male and not female. It’s not a biological binary when you have the technology we have. The MtF transwomen doesn’t have to be fully female to be not male.