Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

Ereshkigalangcleg

Logic isn’t one of pp’s strengths. Remember they have been conditioned to fully believe they are the most marginalised and vulnerable.

Once you fully believe that, all logic must therefore abandon you. Because all those single mothers with children who have been evicted from their home by an abuser, women just out of prison with no family support, women belonging to religious groups where females are property and have little choice in their lives including when to have sex….

I mean that is off the top of my head and I think there are plenty of sub groups of the UK population that could be the most marginalised and vulnerable group.

But the mantra doesn’t allow critical thought at all.

The way I got DP to understand was to remind him that biological sex and gender identity are two completely different things.

Gender is whatever you want it to be, that’s what trans people want to change, who they ‘identify’ as.

Biological sex is a fact, it’s doesn’t matter what cosmetic surgery you have or what drugs you take you cannot change your genetics and your biological sex.

And that confusion is the entire problem with the ‘trans debate’.

@NonnyMouse1337

But still impossible to police effectively.

What you're saying is that trans people are uniquely incapable of respecting the law and are inherently disrespectful of other people's boundaries and completely untrustworthy. Why do you think trans people can't be decent human beings?

I would like to hear Redlake answer this.

I have asked this question a number of times to people who think the ‘gotcha’ of genital inspections cleverly stopped debate. (Well, it certainly was a thought stopping point for those believing it, so I guess they believe everyone else will see just how ‘powerful’ an argument it is, too )

I am yet to get an answer. Maybe redlake will be the poster to explain that if the law was tightened and toilets and changing rooms were to become legally able to exclude any male over the age of 8, with or without a GRC, would those males currently using the women’s spaces respect that law.

And respect the needs of the women and children who use those spaces?

@NonnyMouse1337

But still impossible to police effectively.

What you're saying is that trans people are uniquely incapable of respecting the law and are inherently disrespectful of other people's boundaries and completely untrustworthy. Why do you think trans people can't be decent human beings?

Would love an answer to this.

@NonnyMouse1337

But still impossible to police effectively.

What you're saying is that trans people are uniquely incapable of respecting the law and are inherently disrespectful of other people's boundaries and completely untrustworthy. Why do you think trans people can't be decent human beings?

I think maybe this comment got a little muddled over the course of the thread.

When it originally appeared I think the idea was about allowing fully surgically transitioned transwomen access to places like women's toilets, but not those who were not fully transitioned.

Now arguably at one time, when encountering a transwoman was vanishingly rare, that wasn't so much a practical problem. But under current conditions, I am not so sure. Becaus asking any male presenting as a transwoman who appears to use the women's toilets to prove their qualifications would be pretty invasive.

The problem would be the people taking the piss.

@NonnyMouse1337

But still impossible to police effectively.

What you're saying is that trans people are uniquely incapable of respecting the law and are inherently disrespectful of other people's boundaries and completely untrustworthy. Why do you think trans people can't be decent human beings?

No, not at all. But men as a general class are. The stats on murders, sexual offences, violent crime and the vast weight of human history make that clear.

That's why the Ladies'/female changing room/prison/insert any other female space is such an appealing place for both the completely harmless transwoman who wants to go to the loo in peace AND the predatory male of any gender who wants to commit offences - no other men.

The frequent assertion by transactivists is that males who claim a gender identity that is not 'man' will use female spaces and services, regardless of how women might feel about it and even if it upsets or excludes vulnerable women. This means they assume trans people in general will not respect women's need for single-sex spaces and will not adhere to laws and social conventions that enable such provision for women.

Why do transactivists think that trans people cannot be decent human beings and avoid using single-sex spaces and services that are for women?

What the fuck have I just read in these comments!! You're all insane

@MissMaple82

What the fuck have I just read in these comments!! You're all insane

In what way are people 'insane'?

What don't you agree with and why?

@MissMaple82

What the fuck have I just read in these comments!! You're all insane

Care to elaborate? I'm all ears.

Perhaps insane for even having a debate when clearly men are men, and can use male facilities?

@Deadringer

Could i ask your wise husband please, next time i am in a bathroom and a 6 foot transwoman comes in, how do i politely ask if they have had gender reassignment surgery. Tia

Good question.

But even then, I just don't want to change or share female single sex facilities with male people, however they identify, whether they have a GRC or not, whether they have had SRS or fake boobs or facial feminisation surgery or not, whether they are old or gay or delightful or a relative or friend. I don't want to think about the genital status of a random male person at all.

Just no. Keep out.

I make one exception and that's for young boys who need adult supervision. Otherwise, if you are male and older than about 10, know that you are making me feel uncomfortable and creeping me out because you don't recognise boundaries placed in law and operated through a social contract to protect me from your sex class.

And if you say that you have been using women's spaces for 40 years 'without incident', well, hear it from me, what you have actually been doing is undermining 1000s of women's feelings of dignity, privacy and safety in their own spaces for 40 years. Maybe the fact that you are 6'4" and obviously male is why women haven't said anything to you...

How dare those sexist doctors at Charing Cross and parliamentarians etc give away women's spaces so lightly to men! We were not asked - but the answer is No.

As an aside, I notice many of the middle aged men who tell us they are surgically committed to their trans journey get very misty eyed at the thought that, if only they (and all kids now expressing a cross sex identity) could have had puberty blockers and cross sex hormones as a child, their life would have been so much better, as they might then more readily 'pass' as an adult of the opposite sex.

If your husband would also like to suggest how to recognise the 5-10% of current ""trans"" kids whose gender issues would benefit by being treated by sterilisation/genital mutilation that may be...illuminating.

What level of surgery would a transwoman have to have had for your husband to have sex with them?

OP, you know that most trans people do not have surgery and you have DCs.

If you have a DD, how would your DH feel if she had to get changed in a room with a 'women' with a penis? & if she felt uncomfortable at signs telling her to accommodate as her feelings are not as important as the 'women's' feelings?

If you have a DS, would your DH feel proud if he grew into a man who used changing facilities in front of girls and had his women's penis on display?

What about the boundaries for safety and dignity?

I find the Kwik fit example really strange tbh.

Would a TW with good skills and experience on their CV really automatically be discriminated against? Is one question...

I assume this example is to illustrate the discrimination that TW get, but why tyre fitting of all things?

Did the FACT that women are have been excluded, discriminated against, laughed at for even thinking to do that, etc etc. For years and years. Not cross that posters mind?! Seemingly AT ALL?!!

That is vv interesting and imo telling.

And I would be willing to bet a pint AND a packet pork scratchings.

That a TW who had a CV with the right skills and good experience. Who was a build that would mean the heavy parts of the job (tyres can be vv big and heavy) and the tools (designed for average man) were suitable...

Would automatically not get the job?

Given that would wear boots overalls etc for work... So just maybe long hair (which would be tied back securely obv, and a bit of makeup?

I'm not convinced that would be as big a deal as that poster imagines.

A woman? A young woman hoping to get trainee/junior role?

Would what. Have MORE chance that a TW of getting tyre fitting join Kwik fit? That's a huge massive guess isn't it. I mean obviously.

AND how likely is it that a TW want a job in Kwik fit anyway? Male env, overalls etc, dirty heavy work etc.

And if they did then I'm guessing they would be sensible enough to wear clothing that says yep heavy dirty work no probs. Keep makeup light/ none. And tie hair back.

This example is just weird on so many levels could do with more comment from poster on.. why that example!!!!

Women who say no to men are generally mad. It's a known fact.

Harpies
Irrational
Don't live in real world
Have been so damaged by male violence OR are too ugly for any man to fuck, naturally leads to extreme ideas that bear no relation to reality
Hysterical
Neurotic
Paranoid
Obsessed

Etc etc

I mean this is common knowledge, right?

Assuming that person doesn't agree with most posters.

Then it's insane to know that male and female humans are different esp physically. And that sometimes do things separately because of that. And the risk which is 99.999% one way.

Omg! Where's those straightjackets?!

@NonnyMouse1337

The frequent assertion by transactivists is that males who claim a gender identity that is not 'man' will use female spaces and services, regardless of how women might feel about it and even if it upsets or excludes vulnerable women. This means they assume trans people in general will not respect women's need for single-sex spaces and will not adhere to laws and social conventions that enable such provision for women.

Why do transactivists think that trans people cannot be decent human beings and avoid using single-sex spaces and services that are for women?

The poster who is here talking about genital inspections is on another thread advising that 'old school TS' (transsexuals clearly) operate 'by stealth' and replying simply 'no' to women who have asked that males stay out of women's spaces.

Disgusting.

@Enough4me

OP, you know that most trans people do not have surgery and you have DCs.

If you have a DD, how would your DH feel if she had to get changed in a room with a 'women' with a penis? & if she felt uncomfortable at signs telling her to accommodate as her feelings are not as important as the 'women's' feelings?

If you have a DS, would your DH feel proud if he grew into a man who used changing facilities in front of girls and had his women's penis on display?

What about the boundaries for safety and dignity?

You clearly haven’t read any of my posts.

My disagreement with my husband is purely on the subject of fully transitioned trans women.

We both agree that any TW with a penis have no place in female spaces or sports

OP, but how would he and you know that the man does or does not have a penis until 'she' is changing in front of your DD?

(If you have a DD, or insert other girls or women you know including you)

Also, when a man has his penis removed, this does not undo male puberty to remove male advantage.
So how it can be fair for a man with or without a penis to compete against women?

@Enough4me

OP, but how would he and you know that the man does or does not have a penis until 'she' is changing in front of your DD?

(If you have a DD, or insert other girls or women you know including you)

Yes FFS I agree. That’s the whole crux of our disagreement

@Enough4me

Also, when a man has his penis removed, this does not undo male puberty to remove male advantage. So how it can be fair for a man with or without a penis to compete against women?

If you actually read any of my posts you would see we both agree that regardless of surgery no TW should compete in women’s sport

If he wants to educate himself he should look up some of the sex crimes commited on children in Asia over the last 20-30 years. Being trans (or a eunch as they’re still called over there) hasn’t seemed to prevent attacks. Rape and forced mutilation still seems to be a rite of initiation in the underbelly areas.

@Ozanj

If he wants to educate himself he should look up some of the sex crimes commited on children in Asia over the last 20-30 years. Being trans (or a eunch as they’re still called over there) hasn’t seemed to prevent attacks. Rape and forced mutilation still seems to be a rite of initiation in the underbelly areas.

I hadn’t heard of this. How awful.

OP I think with this whole topic tbh, we (women in general including myself) need to take control of conversation more.

All along, and because of sex roles, socialisation, really constant and involving so much including things so subtle we just aren't even aware that we comply...

We are always trying to explain, to be persuasive, to take time to explain why obvious total fucking nonsense is... Sorry but I don't agree... Here are reasons...

Asked questions that insult- why do you want to gatekeep femininity? Why do you want to exterminate a whole group of people? But women do it too do what's your problem...

With you DH sounds like standard scenario.

You are a woman.
You know what you think/want and why.
You know you are reasonable.

You're running around trying to respond to a statement made at you that he's saying you need to justify, so he can judge whether your opinion on women's spaces is ok or not...?!

Reverse it.

Say to him.

Your opinion that males with no penis should use female single sex facilities services etc (whatever his actual view is).

Can you explain why you believe that a male with no penis should use female stuff if wanted? Some specifics/ examples would be good!

I really wonder if he will answer straightforward.

Or if he will reply with another question. Tell me why you don't agree! Or question on different point. Or demand stats, proof. Any number of ways to not answer.

Don't let him. Hold strong. This is about women. You are one. You are the one who knows what's what.

He has zero experience of being female woman. In a world constructed by men for men.

Refuse any sidetrack.

Let's talk about that later. I really want you to tell me why no penis = ok. Make him spell it out. If he says no penis no sex offences. Say. Can you show me the things that you know that from? I'm not sure that's correct.
He says you Google. No. I only just heard this. You know this and want me to know as fact. I need to see things that you know this from...

I can guarantee that if like 99.999% of men he will drop it/ get annoyed/ really narked etc before you get very far.