Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

People who have managed to achieve what they have achieved ie politics, medicine , education etc major organisations are not as marginalised as you think.

I cant even get a response from my mp let alone an entire policy re worded

Women haven't even achieved the right to their own bodies in some counties.

Yet on.an extremely short amount of time we have this issue.

That's not the result if a marginalised group.

@MaryAndHerNet

Try going for a job at your local Kwik Fit as a trans woman and see where that gets you If they refused to employ a trans person based purely on the fact that person is trans, the trans person should sue.

Try going in the pub at the bottom of my road on a Friday night as a trans woman and see how long it is before someone knocks your lights out
Try going to the pub down the road from me as a single woman or a man that's never been in there before. Trans aren't the only ones that experience violence...

Try working as a teacher as a trans woman and see how long it is before the good denizens of this site petition for their kids to be removed from your care
Has the teacher got a huge chip on their shoulder? That might explain why people wouldn't want their kids taught a bias.

^Try going for a job at your local Kwik Fit as a trans woman and see where that gets you If they refused to employ a trans person based purely on the fact that person is trans, the trans person should sue.^

Yes, because most tyre fitters have £20k+ sitting round to pursue an ET claim, haven't they? Would you say this to a black or gay person?

^Try working as a teacher as a trans woman and see how long it is before the good denizens of this site petition for their kids to be removed from your care
Has the teacher got a huge chip on their shoulder? That might explain why people wouldn't want their kids taught a bias.^

Marginalised groups are sick and tired of being told they have 'chips on their shoulders'. It's one of the classic tropes of the prejudiced.

I would want the conversation to be about women, and the ways in which we are disadvantaged and marginalised because of our sex. I would want my husband to care a lot more about me than a political theory that advantages other men.

Thankfully Dh has always been extremely cynical about other mens motives and always expects the worst from them and is genuinely friends with women so is firmly on board on this.

dancing you are awfully invested in proving marginalisation with nothing to back it up.

You know that transgender is a protected characteristic in hate crime criteria right

So you can call me a fucking slag/bitch/ as I have been called so many times, as much as you like and it's fine because sex isn't on the leat so any sex based insult you wanna throw at me you are all good.

We can do anything to a transgender person though. ( not that I want to because I don't go round doing this stuff)

But whis protected here and who isn't?

I'll give u a clue ...its the same old same old...women fucked over r

Yes, because most tyre fitters have £20k+ sitting round to pursue an ET claim, haven't they? Would you say this to a black or gay person?

Yes, obviously I would. If they can prove they've been discriminated against they have every right to sue.

Marginalised groups are sick and tired of being told they have 'chips on their shoulders'. It's one of the classic tropes of the prejudiced.

Yes, cause no one is more marginalised than.. *checks notes.. the group that's had people sacked and cancelled, had laws changed to accommodate them, forced changes in the policies of refuges and shelters to the point they've pushed out the very people those refuges and shelters were designed for...

@MsTSwift

Thankfully Dh has always been extremely cynical about other mens motives and always expects the worst from them and is genuinely friends with women so is firmly on board on this.

Mine too. He thinks women are being way too soft and being manipulated into losing their rights by some of the worst kind of men.

OP, it's hard for males to understand this because they haven't ever experienced being female. And are physically incapable of experiencing it! So your DH agrees with you on most of the practical points, but can't quite grasp how it is for a woman faced with these issues.

I think he'll get there. I'd suggest not getting into arguments. My DP was similar to yours for a while. Eventually he read something in the newspaper and it all clicked into place.

Try working as a teacher as a trans woman and see how long it is before the good denizens of this site petition for their kids to be removed from your care

Obviously we can't try that, but Debbie Hayton seems to manage it ok.

I suspect many women are perfectly happy with post-op transexuals accessing female spaces. The controversy is around self ID and the fact many people don't realise surgery is not a prerequisite to formally change gender

No. Many women are not happy to share sex segregated spaces with any males, no matter how they identify. They may have done so in the past when there was a teeny tiny number. But it's not a tiny number any more, and the majority do not have any surgery. Not that I would want people to put themselves through surgery that they don't want. But the system is too open to abuse now. Women's spaces need to be sex segregated, not gender segregated. Safeguarding does not work in a gender segregated world.

Obviously we can't try that, but Debbie Hayton seems to manage it ok.

Yep.

@Oblomov22

"I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances. "

Unfortunately I think you may be wrong on this and he is correct.
BBC : "However, refusing a trans woman entry to a pub's female toilet is likely to be unlawfull_."

This is because in law, the Equality Act of 2010, and the Gender Recognition Act 2004, gave trans rights.

Which is why it is a pointless argument. A GRC holder is legally the sex on their birth certificate. Genital inspections to gain access to women's spaces would be absurd and would contravene the Human Rights Act. So impossible to police anyway.

Forget it and move on.

I wouldn't worry about it. He's wrong but I wouldn't let it ruin your relationship. My partner and I used to have massive rows about Corbyn. Eventually he saw I was right. These things happen.

Brilliant post at 11:12 @ScribblingPixie, thank you

Yes, cause no one is more marginalised than.. checks notes.. the group that's had people sacked and cancelled, had laws changed to accommodate them, forced changes in the policies of refuges and shelters to the point they've pushed out the very people those refuges and shelters were designed for*

Yy

The thing that gives it away about the whole " marginalised " thing that's being bandied about is whats being asked.

Its not about a ramp so they cab get in the damn building

Its not about a space to pump breastmilk on your lunch break.

Its not subtitles on a screen so you can see qhats being said.

Its not some time off to recover from having a baby.

Its not about being allowed into a school so you can learn like.your male counterparts.

Its the " right" to complete speech
Its the " right" to undress with members of the opposite sex regardless of consent.

Its the " right" to remove the entire purpose of a space and centre it around someone else.

And it's the " right" to remove all the words that would explain.whats going on.

We do have to ask.ourselves if anyone should have those rights tbh

Compell speech

Even for those with a GRC, there are single sex exemptions in the Equality Act which allow single sex services to legally exclude them due to their sex, not the changed sex noted on documents -
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

'739.This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services. Such treatment by a provider has to be objectively justified.'

Examples of such services are given and include cervical screening and rape crisis services.

This is also allowable under the Occupational exemptions with examples of services given- www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/26/1

There's always talk of contravening human rights and genital inspections but the law as it stands allows for single sex spaces.

@Waitwhat23

Even for those with a GRC, there are single sex exemptions in the Equality Act which allow single sex services to legally exclude them due to their sex, not the changed sex noted on documents - www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

'739.This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services. Such treatment by a provider has to be objectively justified.'

Examples of such services are given and include cervical screening and rape crisis services.

This is also allowable under the Occupational exemptions with examples of services given- www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/26/1

There's always talk of contravening human rights and genital inspections but the law as it stands allows for single sex spaces.

But still impossible to police effectively.

So if a trans woman gets beaten up by a man, it's their own fault, because they're male.

slow handclap

And like fuck would you and dozens of other posters here tolerate their kids being taught by a trans woman.

Don’t twist what others have said.

Any male or female getting attacked is not acceptable for any reason. It was not implied that it was not.

It was stated that the prevalence did not make transitioned males ‘the most vulnerable and marginalised’ above other males who were also attacked.

And frankly, if transitioned males remained completely professional as a teacher, not pushing their own agendas and respected female single sex spaces, why would anyone have an issue compared to other male teachers ?

It seems you are entrenched in your belief that you are always persecuted due to a trans status. However, how much of it is just people disagreeing with your crossing of boundaries that you might feel you are entitled to. When you are not entitled to cross those boundaries at all.

No one should be ‘beaten up’ because they are different.

@MsTSwift

Thankfully Dh has always been extremely cynical about other mens motives and always expects the worst from them and is genuinely friends with women so is firmly on board on this.

Same here and same as ScribblingPixie says:

He thinks women are being way too soft and being manipulated into losing their rights by some of the worst kind of men.

My husband has what some would call a very jaundiced view of men but as he says in response I know what men are like and I know the lengths they will go to. He also absolutely furious about the inclusion of TW in female sports, he watches a lot of female sport and enjoys it, he will not watch it if TW are included as it is unsafe and grossly unfair.

@ScribblingPixie

I would want the conversation to be about women, and the ways in which we are disadvantaged and marginalised because of our sex. I would want my husband to care a lot more about me than a political theory that advantages other men.

The men who can't see this are in denial.

I'm lucky that mine is like yours and MrTSwift he's seen the worst of male behaviour and knows exactly what some men are capable of and he has no patience for it.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Yes, cause no one is more marginalised than.. checks notes.. the group that's had people sacked and cancelled, had laws changed to accommodate them, forced changes in the policies of refuges and shelters to the point they've pushed out the very people those refuges and shelters were designed for*

Yy

The thing that gives it away about the whole " marginalised " thing that's being bandied about is whats being asked.

Its not about a ramp so they cab get in the damn building

Its not about a space to pump breastmilk on your lunch break.

Its not subtitles on a screen so you can see qhats being said.

Its not some time off to recover from having a baby.

Its not about being allowed into a school so you can learn like.your male counterparts.

Its the " right" to complete speech
Its the " right" to undress with members of the opposite sex regardless of consent.

Its the " right" to remove the entire purpose of a space and centre it around someone else.

And it's the " right" to remove all the words that would explain.whats going on.

We do have to ask.ourselves if anyone should have those rights tbh

Yes.

The most marginalised and vulnerable is trope.

Are trans people marginalised? I am sure there will be cases. Are they vulnerable? Many are due to a whole slew of reasons, only some of which is due to their identity.

Are they more marginalised or vulnerable than many females in very precarious domestic situations? Or other groups? I don’t believe they are. And I find this use of ‘most’ offensive.

It is politically expedient over-exaggeration.

My DP has trans friends. Nice people. Probably as safe as any other.

I asked him that if it's not an issue of safety, why didn't he get one of his friends to take his 6 year old daughter to get showered and changed after swimming rather than me doing it.

Are trans people marginalised? I am sure there will be cases. Are they vulnerable? Many are due to a whole slew of reasons, only some of which is due to their identity

Some of it is even caused by the people meant to be advocating for them. It took 5000 people quietly living their lives and increased it to anyone who doesn't follow stereotypes 100 percent including of only part time. As if we wouldn't notice.

Advocated for the placing of people in said vulnerable situations. As if a teenage transboy is going to he safe in the mens locker room.

Advocating for switching markers on medical files.

With friends like that who needs enemies right.

As always angry at the wrong people. Why are people angry at women saying no to a male eveb if its just a part time cross dresser which has now been included under the unbrella rather than the people to created the problem.in the first place by making out they had all these rights that they didn't.