Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

Urgh

I'm.so sick.of this marginalised group nonsense.

Since when were heterosexual white males ( which are a large proportion ofnthide whi claim to be trans ) marginalised.

Do they not see they have been conned into believing this

But that those who have taken such drastic action deserve to be considered women.

Being a woman is not some kind of reward for not having a penis.

For me this is on another level to having different views on socio-political or economic policy or similar. Gender ideology is a deeply misogynistic movement, and believing womanhood is a feeling in a man’s head or a descriptor of anyone without a penis is indeed misogynistic and dismissive of women as fully-fledged human beings. To keep it would be more akin to discovering my partner was racist - it’s believing a group of other people to be “lesser” than that they see as the default because of the group’s shared characteristic. I could live with a difference of political views, but not something so fundamental as that.

@Shedmistress

Although I guess I threw at him that he has contempt for women. When he absolutely isn’t that man at all. (Well perhaps very slightly in light of his comments)

He does have contempt for women when he thinks he can override our wants and he will open the door for men to invade our spaces.

That's exactly what that is.

We say no. But he feels we are too stupid to have our own opinions about it and he knows better.

I think that is unfair. I suspect many women are perfectly happy with post-op transexuals accessing female spaces. The controversy is around self ID and the fact many people don't realise surgery is not a prerequisite to formally change gender.

Personally I think the DH's position is reasonable. The OP does not. It is up to her how she responds to a difference of view in her marriage - I am happy for DH to think differently to me on any number of issues and would be most disturbed if he expected me to agree with him on absolutely everything.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Urgh

I'm.so sick.of this marginalised group nonsense.

Since when were heterosexual white males ( which are a large proportion ofnthide whi claim to be trans ) marginalised.

Do they not see they have been conned into believing this

Try going for a job at your local Kwik Fit as a trans woman and see where that gets you

Try going in the pub at the bottom of my road on a Friday night as a trans woman and see how long it is before someone knocks your lights out

Try working as a teacher as a trans woman and see how long it is before the good denizens of this site petition for their kids to be removed from your care

I had a falling out with my (adult,40s) daughter in similar circumstances recently. If it's hard to accept a male's opinion on this I think it must be harder to accept that your own daughter, who've you've brought up to notice the injustices that the female sex experience, prefers to side with with men. She belongs to a group who want to include everyone and "be kind" and is afraid of opening her eyes to what is happening in case she loses her friends.... I have been told to never bring up the subject again. :(

@AyeRobot

Don't forget that in addition to men and non-men, lots of men divide women into fuckable and non-fuckable, so another person moving into the latter category is neither here or there to them.

This is spot on for most men.

Males & females live in parallel universes - men havent got a clue (& don't really give a shit) how our world works.

And how many other people also have that happen to then all the time.

There's always fights. Mostly man/male to man/male.

99.9.percent of those who apply for a job don't get it.

No one objects so much to a transwoman teaching their children. They object to gaslighting children. As long as you dress appropriately, don't chastise over pronouns or tell kids you are the sex you aren't you will be ok.

@Whatwouldscullydo

And how many other people also have that happen to then all the time.

There's always fights. Mostly man/male to man/male.

99.9.percent of those who apply for a job don't get it.

No one objects so much to a transwoman teaching their children. They object to gaslighting children. As long as you dress appropriately, don't chastise over pronouns or tell kids you are the sex you aren't you will be ok.

So if a trans woman gets beaten up by a man, it's their own fault, because they're male.

slow handclap

And like fuck would you and dozens of other posters here tolerate their kids being taught by a trans woman.

I guess your DH's view is coming from a kind place, of wanting to support a minority. A minority that would have gone through some fairly gruesome changes to become something else as he see's it. Plus it is a "macro" view.

It's when you get down to the micro view and the daily practicalities that his view point becomes problematic. He has already observed that sports competition is obviously a non starter. When you discuss the various other practical situations, I believe his view point will become more aligned with yours.

No one should be beaten up.

But those doing thr beating are mist often male..as are the victims.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

They are the safest demographic in the UK.

Don't put lies into other peoples mouths, thedancingbear. It's not conducive to civil debate and liable to be seen as 'not in the spirit'.

If anyone gets beaten up, it's always the fault of the person who did the beating.

And why would we object to a trans teacher? So long as, like any other, they're being professional in the classroom, why would we?

If anyone gets beaten up, it's always the fault of the person who did the beating.

But at least one person is fine with that, as long as the violence is male-on-male.

And why would we object to a trans teacher? So long as, like any other, they're being professional in the classroom, why would we?

You may be fine with it. But you and I know perfectly well that others on this site would be deeply, deeply uncomfortable.

Agree with PPs there is too much focus on the penis. If I find myself in an enclosed space/dark alley with a strange man, I'm not thinking about his cock. I'm thinking about how easily he could overpower me. I'm not thinking about what might happen after that - the sheer fear of being overpowered is enough. The fact that a man can do what he wants with me, sexual or not.

Agree also the DH's position is easy to take when you're thinking of Hayley from Corrie. It becomes rather less tenable when you're faced with the reality of a muscular 6ft person with big hands.

Why are you trying to make up arguments so you can shoot people down in arguments you just invented. What does that achieve?

Women are not males without a penis.
Wonen are allowed to say no to males.

Males should be nicer to other males.

Its not womens problem.

I would have no issues with a trans woman teacher. As the previous poster said, so long as you don’t try to impose your views about gender on children

@ErrolTheDragon

Don't put lies into other peoples mouths, thedancingbear. It's not conducive to civil debate and liable to be seen as 'not in the spirit'.

If anyone gets beaten up, it's always the fault of the person who did the beating.

And why would we object to a trans teacher? So long as, like any other, they're being professional in the classroom, why would we?

Absolutely

Which I’m sure you wouldn’t if you are professional in the classroom

@Oblomov22 if you look up that case elsewhere, it is unclear in that it is not declared whether the discrimination is the denial of the use of women's toilets or the landlord barring them.

The Equality Act 2010 does cover gender reassignment as a protected characteristic but also acknowledges the need for and allows single SEX (not single gender) spaces in certain circumstances - one being toilet facilities. An appropriate response is providing an alternative facility e.g. a unisex toilet. Refusing to allow biologically male people, even if they present/identify as a woman, is a "proportionate means to a legitimate aim" because it protects the rights of women to have a single sex space.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Why are you trying to make up arguments so you can shoot people down in arguments you just invented. What does that achieve?

Women are not males without a penis.
Wonen are allowed to say no to males.

Males should be nicer to other males.

Its not womens problem.

I don't disagree with anything in this post.

I was challenging your assertion in your 10.37 post that trans people do not suffer prejudice or marginalisation. Of course they do.

You can hold GC views without peddling this obvious falsehood. It's crass and offensive, and it's a premise you don't need.

But at least one person is fine with that, as long as the violence is male-on-male

I don’t know who the one person is…though if its the person I think it is they literally said that no one should be beaten up

Try going for a job at your local Kwik Fit as a trans woman and see where that gets you
If they refused to employ a trans person based purely on the fact that person is trans, the trans person should sue.

Try going in the pub at the bottom of my road on a Friday night as a trans woman and see how long it is before someone knocks your lights out
Try going to the pub down the road from me as a single woman or a man that's never been in there before. Trans aren't the only ones that experience violence...

Try working as a teacher as a trans woman and see how long it is before the good denizens of this site petition for their kids to be removed from your care
Has the teacher got a huge chip on their shoulder? That might explain why people wouldn't want their kids taught a bias.

I suspect many women are perfectly happy with post-op transexuals accessing female spaces. The controversy is around self ID and the fact many people don't realise surgery is not a prerequisite to formally change gender.

I'm not.

Did anyone ever ask women whether they were perfectly happy about this?

I am not ticking that box.

And if you are perfectly happy then that's good for you. But you do not get to obliterate other women's opinions because you are perfectly happy that men without penises are some sort of woman. They aren't.

Your husband will listen when a high status man tells him to.

My husband and I disagree on this. He says he understands but he’s very much ‘why can’t you just be kind.’, informing his opinion from the Guardian etc. Although, it gave me great satisfaction that a female relative (who he looks up to and was absolutely convinced that she would go along with the TRA narrative) turned out to be in total agreement with me. His relative and I are quite different personality wise. Hopefully this will lead him to have a ‘hang on a sec if those two agree’ moment.