Disagreement with husband about trans debate

[HermioneKipper]

Had people around for dinner and somehow got on to the topic of women’s spaces, being gender critical, the current debate around JKR.

After they left was discussing further with my husband and it turns out he thinks my views are extreme and I’ve “gone too far.”

He agrees that trans women who haven’t had surgery have no place in women’s spaces but thinks that if they’ve had gender reassignment surgery then they should be allowed into women’s spaces and called women.

I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances.

He said he thinks I’m too radical and shouldn’t think this way about a marginalised group 😡

I can’t believe we disagree so fundamentally on this and I’m so upset about it.

@HermioneKipper

I just hate that we fundamentally disagree on something so important.

We’ve always been very much on the same page politically/ideologically etc. And I’m upset that he thinks so little of me that he would think I could ever be bigoted about anything.

I’ve had a few glasses of wine so I could be making a meal out of it but I’m genuinely really upset

Do you normally agree in terms of politics/ ideology? Do you respect his views usually? Do you trust him? Do you think he has your best interests at heart? Do you think he is intelligent and usually well informed?

If your answers to the above questions are yes, maybe you need to give some consideration to what he has said.

So sorry OP, like a large number of men, he has no real skin in the game so he just doesn’t see how bloody offensive it is to basically be saying “yes women can be a feeling in a man’s head & a costume he can put on. If he gets rid of his dick why can’t you just be kind eh?”

I am married to a TRA so sympathise. We try not to talk about it.

What exactly do you both mean by womens spaces though? Because if you really object to a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC using a ladies public toilet then I do think that is rather extreme.

Women's refuges and rape crisis counselling is a bit different though.

For what it’s worth, I agree with your husband.
I have no idea what DH thinks because it has absolutely no relevance to our relationship whatsoever!

I just looked blankly at DH when he started on the 'fully transitioned' stuff and asked whether he, bass-voiced, 6ft 7 and balding, with size 14 feet, would be a convincing woman even without a willy.

Whilst completely disagreeing with his view on that point, I’d say not to be too upset with him. Spouses don’t agree on everything. Views change. If his views on TW were completely at odds with yours then that would be different, but he’s probably a lot closer to your views than most people (including many women).

And at least he will discuss it. I’ve had a few conversations with teenage DD about it (we disagree) and DH gets very cross that we are daring to have a debate as he seems to think it’s better to ignore any disagreements (a whole other thread!). DD is very influenced by a girl at school who is trans as DD gets on with her and doesn’t want to malign her. She can’t explain to me though why the girl can’t dress how she wants and do the activities she wants whilst still being female without it reinforcing sexist stereotypes that females must have long hair, wear makeup and play with dolls.)

For heterosexual men who say TW are women, asking the question as to whether they’d therefore be happy to be in a relationship / sleep with them is often the way to make them realise that actually they don’t really think that.

What are his opinions on trans men out of interest?

Does he consider them men when they’ve had their breasts removed? Or do they have to have had phalloplasty? Does he think they should be considered male for the purposes of joining all male groups (eg Masonic lodges)?

Would he consider it appropriate that a trans man (at whatever stage of surgery they were at) would be authorised to conduct an intimate body search on him? Would he (really) feel totally comfortable if that were to happen?

We can’t agree 100% on all issues with our partners.
Unless one/both of you are involved in drafting law/policy regarding trans people using women only spaces, it’s best to chalk this up to one of those “agree to disagree” cases and move on.

No one will ever be happy with any formal policy regarding this matter. Some Trans people may feel marginalised, some women may feel unsafe, some women may feel like women’s rights have been pushed aside for trans rights….. the list can go on.

I believe the ‘conflict free’ resolution (albeit impractical) is unisex single user bathrooms (like a plane or train) in public spaces.

"I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances. "

Unfortunately I think you may be wrong on this and he is correct.
BBC : "However, refusing a trans woman entry to a pub's female toilet is likely to be unlawfull_."

This is because in law, the Equality Act of 2010, and the Gender Recognition Act 2004, gave trans rights.

I'm another one who thinks you and your DH are not that far apart on this. I would agree to disagree for now. You can always explain why you think what you do, but neither of you should be berating the other into having to agree with them completely.

To be honest I can't decide if I agree more with you or your DH. I know most on this board agree more with you and I do understand that opinion. But I also really l feel really bad for the tiny minority of fully transitioned transsexuals who were quietly getting on with life before TRAs and Stonewall ruined everything.

Anyway, I think you and your DH could be a lot further apart than you are!

I think its weird that people think not allowing males into women's private spaces is an 'extreme view'.

I’d be upset too OP. I find it fucking offensive that so many people seem to think woman = “person with no penis”, which is what your DH’s stance boils down to.

Just because most men seem to be ruled by their cock one way or the other doesn’t mean we should be defined by it!

@Oblomov22

"I disagree with this and think that people cannot change sex and no male born people should be allowed into women’s spaces under any circumstances. "

Unfortunately I think you may be wrong on this and he is correct.
BBC : "However, refusing a trans woman entry to a pub's female toilet is likely to be unlawfull_."

This is because in law, the Equality Act of 2010, and the Gender Recognition Act 2004, gave trans rights.

OP isnt wrong to to have her opinion and believe those things

[quote HermioneKipper]@WhereYouLeftIt I agree with you. I will have another discussion with him soon. I’m hoping he just hasn’t fully understood all the issues at play[/quote]
Buy him a copy of Trans. Then talk to him again.

My DH has voiced similar to me in the past - concern over my hardline position and a little bit of distaste with it even.

The problem is he isn't as invested in this as I am, he doesn't spend hours reading and watching, writing emails etc. So when he sees me change from 'be kind' to a hardline stance it takes him a while to catch up - like anyone who engages with the facts though, he doesn't have any argument once he digests the information.

It's part of why we are in this mess as lots of us are left leaning, liberal thinking and our inclination was inclusion at the start - I wasn't upset by my DHs view as it's a big topic and I knew once he thought about it and read up, he would reach the logical conclusion.

So he thinks a woman is simply a man without a penis?

I wouldn't be happy with that either.

those who have taken such drastic action deserve to be considered women

"Woman" is not an honour (like a knighthood for example) to be awarded to a deserving man. A man, by definition, can never be a woman.

He doesn't get to decide and impose his views on the millions of women who disagree with him.

@DeckardK

My DH has voiced similar to me in the past - concern over my hardline position and a little bit of distaste with it even.

The problem is he isn't as invested in this as I am, he doesn't spend hours reading and watching, writing emails etc. So when he sees me change from 'be kind' to a hardline stance it takes him a while to catch up - like anyone who engages with the facts though, he doesn't have any argument once he digests the information.

It's part of why we are in this mess as lots of us are left leaning, liberal thinking and our inclination was inclusion at the start - I wasn't upset by my DHs view as it's a big topic and I knew once he thought about it and read up, he would reach the logical conclusion.

Thanks. I’m hopeful that this is where we are too.

I too am much more invested and generally keep an eye on the awful stuff on Twitter to stay abreast of everything while writing to MPs etc.

It’s just upsetting that my own husband would say that he thinks I’m bigoted. Still feeling quite hurt about that this morning. Although I guess I threw at him that he has contempt for women. When he absolutely isn’t that man at all. (Well perhaps very slightly in light of his comments)

So he thinks a woman is simply a man without a penis?

Like many, he maybe thinks old school transexuals, as they used to be called, who have undergone surgery should be able to live fully as women. I agree with him, but I also accept others may have different views. Including my DH because we are not a hive mind.

Look, DH and I are Scottish and survived an incredibly divisive referendum that split familes, where we voted different ways. Because we respect each others right to our own views and opinions. That works for my marriage, maybe it won't work for yours. But expecting my life partner to agree with me on everything would not form the basis of a stable and equal relationship for me.

I can respect other views, but you can force me to agree with them. As a great female leader Queen Elizabeth said: "I have no desire to make windows into men's souls." Or the great scientist Galileo 'it still moves'. What is gained from trying to force your DH to 'recant'?

@PaterPower

What are his opinions on trans men out of interest?

Does he consider them men when they’ve had their breasts removed? Or do they have to have had phalloplasty? Does he think they should be considered male for the purposes of joining all male groups (eg Masonic lodges)?

Would he consider it appropriate that a trans man (at whatever stage of surgery they were at) would be authorised to conduct an intimate body search on him? Would he (really) feel totally comfortable if that were to happen?

Im not 100% sure on his views on trans men but Im fairly sure he wouldn’t have an issue with either them joining the masons etc or the search thing. I just think that biological women are just not a threat to men in any way so they have no issues with them.

I suppose like I have no issue over Cubs/scouts being mixed sex but I have a serious issue with the reverse for girlguiding.

I thought my husband was different as he has always shared childcare as much as possible/does his share of the housework/very respectful of women’s boundaries/is very fair in his management position at work, looks to appoint women etc in what’s a very male dominated industry.

I’m hopeful he just needs to do some more research on the issue

If he actually called me a bigot I would be upset too, so I hope he apologies for that when you talk about this again.

Our biggest disagreement came when we were watching a woodwork program (random!) and one of the contestants was someone who looked like a man, but was called she by the presenter and judges - it got my goat, especially as my children were really confused. My DH couldn't see the issue and thought I was being offensive not to refer to him as her - it's harder to stick to your principles on an individual, rather than societal basis and he thought that made me unkind.

I guess it would be unfair to ask him to ‘recant’ as it were.

I suppose I’m upset that if I, as a woman, tell him I feel uncomfortable with male bodied people in women’s spaces, regardless of genitalia, he can’t respect that.

@TheWeeDonkey

I think its weird that people think not allowing males into women's private spaces is an 'extreme view'.

Me too. I also think it's not up to the OP's husband to be deciding which men women should allow or not allow into their spaces.

Although I guess I threw at him that he has contempt for women. When he absolutely isn’t that man at all. (Well perhaps very slightly in light of his comments)

He does have contempt for women when he thinks he can override our wants and he will open the door for men to invade our spaces.

That's exactly what that is.

We say no. But he feels we are too stupid to have our own opinions about it and he knows better.

He's probably one of those men so aghast at some men choosing to remove their genitals that he thinks they should be prioritised over women. I honestly think some men are so traumatised by that thought they think we are just being mean.